I was the lucky one after eight years of counseling I was pretty much cured it has been decades now and I have never harmed anyone. The program I went to was the starting point the individual counselor I went to was the mid point and my own experimenting in the reprogramming of the mind were the final cure for me. I of course had an epiphany or two of my own. One of these being when my daughter was born I understood agape love. I am writing all of this because apparently people come here looking for help in counseling choices. I would encourage those that truly want to change to consider the same path I did if you can find a program like the one I attended. The program I attended had offenders, AMACS (adults molested as children), and parents of children that were molested all would meet in guided group setting together. This part of the program was tough. Being in group having to witness thirty five year old women breaking down because of the pain and choices they had made due to the chain of events before and since they were molested and to realize that my victim could go through the same was awakening to say the least. Having the anger of the parents directed at me, the pure rage is hard to describe but was necessary. The hardest on myself and others though were the other offenders we could tell when the other offenders were not doing their work. I have seen some offenders in this program who I would consider evil you could see the hatred and lust on their face like a mask, but they were the vast minority. I have met hundreds of amacs, offenders, and parents of children who were molested. I am happy to say that after seeing the work that I did, the changes I made through this therapy, I had great friends in all three groups. We would all meet and eat together a little surreal but we humans are social creatures and through shared experiences we had become friends.

The individual counselor was important to me to keep trying to work within this broken society to work on building a support group and healthy relationships. The normal stuff for one who was molested and had become an offender and just wanted to live in my country.

Finally I come to the reprogramming of the mind. When I was molested I felt the revolting touch but I didn’t think that I was doing that to my victim. I made excuses and just wasn’t the adult that I needed to be in the situation. If I had had a childhood and some therapy I might have made that connection and my life would be very different today. I was very young myself but I was the adult and I accept responsibility for what I actually did. I say this because I want to make it clear that you cannot jump to this work until you have done the necessary ground work needed otherwise you can fall into porn addiction or worse trading one sickness for another. Children are sexualized in almost all societies. Genetically we are drawn to the best looking of the opposite sex for procreation and younger and younger models and singers/performers are being portrayed as the ideal. We are being programed by media. This in conjunction with the chain of events that shape all of our sexualities/personalities in our own reality tunnels during our development brings us to the present messed up state of being many find themselves in. For those who find the very young attractive it is most important to change your orientation this can be accomplished but the walk is hard. First of all stop watching T.V. for a while. Secondly the use of porn and mental imagery during masturbation or mental imagery during coitus. The release of serotonin by the brain during orgasm is an addictive experience as almost everyone knows. Gradually change the masturbation material or fantasy used to primarily mature porn or fantasy speak out loud during the experience . Allow what you need to be safe (give to yourself so you don’t take) in fantasy only for the cathartic effect ( I do not endorse child porn ) see

http://newgon.com/wiki/Research:_Child_Pornography

It is also paramount to see children as totally nonsexual the best way to do this is Systematic Desensitization (see reference articles) what you can do (depending upon your country and the laws therein) if you have not committed a crime is to join nudist groups. Seeing people naked in a non sexual way takes away the allure allowing a normalization of the sex drive. This could be done just by seeing pictures. Large parties where most are naked yet still non sexual are also a good way to desensitize and become less fixated. However you do it, it must be nonsexual. If you feel sexual at all and cannot use the relaxation process taught in desensitization remove yourself period. I would love to say never go to sites such as preteen modeling sites or the like even though these sites are legal and the children are clothed it is the sexualization of minors that objectifies them and reduces their humanity in an offenders or potential offenders eyes allowing the continued cycle of abuse. IMHO these sites are exponentially worse than any porn site due to the fact that the come hither looks and scantly clad real children reinforces the very programing that anyone seeking counseling should be trying to undo. If you have been charged however these might be your only option for desensitization material due to the potential legal issues you must make your own decisions based on your own research or lawyers advice. I take no responsibility for your actions. This is not the only course of treatment and might not be right for you. Maybe a 12 step program would be better for people like sex addicts or you could even choose some of the chemical castration options spoken in the reference material one thing I have learned is to try not to judge. I believe becoming aware of your physiological reactions such as breathing and heart rate as tought in Systematic Desensitization and understanding your own red flags through counseling and giving to yourself (whatever that is ie masturbation, going to a movie, working less, reducing stress) so you don’t end up taking/acting out upon can be important. It can eventually become natural to see children as children innocent and deserving of their childhood. Once you learn how to give/guide to/for yourself your brain lets go of the need to give/take (ie compulsive behavior) for itself. So give to yourself whatever you need in fantasy as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone but program your mind through conscious repetition and the release of serotonin to desire more mature partners. This might seem counter intuitive and I don’t suggest anything here just offer my opinions for your consideration. It is a wise man who learns from his own mistakes it is a wiser man who learns from others.

ref#s

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V5W-4608P85-3F&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1980&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1388441784&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=24097c0a21ff028959a93c4ad01d0a11

http://www.health.am/sex/more/pedophilia_imaginal_desensitization/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_desensitization

http://www.guidetopsychology.com/sysden.htm

from what I can see, no one is actually advocating for peadophilia here. Nor is anyone advocating for the systematic murder of peadophiles.

In Australia, there is a case where a person was actually goaled on the basis of wrong evidence, and he spent 1,000 days in goal for a crime he did not commit. During the process, the police froze his assets, and as a result of that his 2 year old daughter died because the family could not afford to see a doctor or pay for medication. He was the victim of a false allegation driven by the need of the complainant to obtain compensation. When the case was finally heard on appeal, and evidence was provided by a Government Agency to prove he was not in the location where the complainant said he was, he was freed. During the process, his business was lost, his daughter died as stated above, and he has suffered considerably.

Clearly, people who are actually guilty of this heinous crime deserve to be punished, however they also have the right to a fair trial, and to be treated fairly and their human rights observed. The result if this is not observed is disasterous for both the person and his/her family OK.

The other main point is that while there are examples of people committing crimes against children getting off lightly, there are also other examples of people who receive big sentences as the trend appears to be that they are getting more severe as public pressure mounts.

Finally, it is not up to any member of the public, nor a victim, to punish an offender. This is why we have courts, and why we insist on fair trials, so that offenders are treated the same. No one deserves a death sentence, no one should ever be punished by vigilantes.

I understand that you are very emotional about what has happened to you.

Also, Michael, the DSM has been riddled with ‘mistakes’ in it’s history. For example the first edition included homosexuality as a Mental Illness however it has been revised out of it now. Likewise, I don’t think peadophilia is a mental illness, but rather it is a psychological condition.

Jason, just one last point. What would you propose to do to a 15 year old girl who takes a photograph of her self and distribute it on the Internet, or by mobile phone as ‘sexting’. Or, what would you propose to do to a 16 or 17 year old young man who has sex with a girl just one week short of her age of consent birthday? Both of these situations are crimes under present legislation in most Western Countries, and would lable both as sex offenders who would have to register on the Sex Offenders Register and be banned from working with children. These are the sorts of issues being debated here mate.

Cheers

KK

As for it not being a mental illness, it’s in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

It has been proven that pedophilia is NOT a mental illness, It is a desire to have sex with children as young as toddlers and sometimes babies.

I’m 100% positive that none of you equal rights bleeding hearts have never been subject to these “people” and I use the term lightly. Your children have never been a victim of one of these “urges”. If you had, you would be singing different tune.

Why is it that I rob a bank and serve seven years, Where all I took was money and didn’t physically hurt anyone, and your average child rapist is lucky to serve 3 years? You can fuck my kids but don’t you dare steal my money! It’s bleeding hearts like you that keep the maximum penalties for these type of offenses so low.

I’m sure I have pissed off some of you and I really don’t care because the truth hurts. Fardon was and is a piece of shit and doesn’t deserve to be alive. I spent more than a year with him against my every urge and desire not to pull the limbs from his body, I succeeded in curbing those needs, Why cant pedophiles curb theirs? Because they don’t want to. That is why they need to be tracked, monitopred and God willing executed.

You all make me sick, If your kid was raped and murdered, you wouldn’t be here talking rubbish and validating their rights to fuck children! Thats exactly what you are doing!

I am so angry right now. Feel free to debate me, I actually know what I am talking about, life experience with this, You all know shit and your writings only prove that.

I’m even happy to put my REAL name at the bottom of this… unlike most!

Sorry too folks for the extra long post. It is clearly an issue that is complicated, and to do it justice the issues need to be explored in thier entirity, not just piecemeal.

In terms of my comment: “In fact, the Government is NOT interested in protecting children, they are only interested in ‘looking good’ to the masses so they will vote for them.�

Governments are not Police. Police are only the instruments of Governments. If the Government was truly interested in protecting children, then they would take steps to protect the children of people accused of these sorts of crimes. They do, after all have an obligation under the United Nations Convention of the Rights of the Child to do so, even if they are the children of someone accused of a crime.

As for the statistics promoted by UNICEF, if you do your research on media releases made by the various Police Services around the world, you will find it blotted with statistics that have been debunked. In fact, there is evidence to highlight that some of the statistics are actually made up. Take a look at the paper ‘Laundering Statistics’ for some great stuff here.

While I have no doubt the statistics provided by UNICEF are accurate, you will note that they often use the terms ‘estimated’ and so on. The surveys they publish are great, but unfortunately they are not related to policing statistics in the Western World.

I think this subject deserves looking at further, and will get back with some good links and articles to reference what I am talking about.

Cheers

KK

What I was on about is the fact that police don’t give a damn about the child victims of investigation (naming and shaming) fallouts. In my case, my two children were the victims of vigilante reactions. Where were the police then to protect them?

In the case of that chap wrongly sent to goal for child sex tourism (it’s a huge case in Australia at the moment that is disgusting in terms of the conduct of the police and prosecutor), the man’s child died as a result of not being able to pay for medication due to having his assets frozen by the police! Where were the police when this child died?

The real victims in these sorts of cases are actually hidden, that is what I am on about here.

At no time did I ever say they don’t care about child rape. These victims deserve the time and expertise of the police to bring perpetrators to justice, as well as rescue the victims.

What needs to happen however is to observe an accused’s rights, as well as thier children.

I personally think, that when an accused has children, thier rights should be paramount and equal to the victim of child rape/pornography.

This is easily achievable while seeing justice to be done. Naming an accused before they are convicted is irresponsible and should be avoided. Even when convicted, it should be enough for the public to know that a perpetrator got sent to goal. Lets leave the families out of it eh?

Cheers

KK

“In fact, the Government is NOT interested in protecting children, they are only interested in ‘looking good’ to the masses so they will vote for them.”

But my response was directed at the last few comments and not just ones by you.

As for you being offended at the implication that you suffer from cognitive bias, isn’t that a bit like being offended at the implications of being an ape? All humans are apes and all humans are affected by cognitive biases — that’s not controvercial.

But more specifically when I encounter a quote like the one I just mentioned, it certainly does make me think about the potential biases of the person who said it.

if you are referring to my last entry, at no time did I ever state that Law Enforcement don’t care about child rape.

Also, at no time did I ever say the statistics on child rape are grossly exaggerated.

Neither do I like the implication in your statement that I am affected by a form of cognitive bias.

Child pornography is the issue that is grossly exaggerated, and this is supported by good critical analysis and academic research.

Chid rape is something that absolutely disgusts me. We clearly are talking about two different, however related issues. Child pornography and child rape. It is possible to rape a child and photograph it, which then becomes child pornography. The child rape can and does occur in the absence of child pornography. Child pornography can involve the taking of photographs of children, yet not involve the act of rape. Hence while not mutually exclusive subsets, there is some overlap of the two types of criminal history. It is further complicated by the fact that what we are talking about in terms of peadophilia has been distorted to include young people up to the age of 18 (which is included in police statistics by the way). Peadophilia is a term that can not be applied to any sexual interest in a person past puberty. There is another psychological term applied to people attracted to young people in their teens!

I am acutely aware of the psychological effects of both being the victim of sexual abuse, as well as being the perpetrator. Not only that, but I also know first hand what it is like being the victim of false charges of child pornography. You see, my professional and personal background place me in a very unique position.

The ‘cognitive bias’ you refer to in your post is actually a ‘selection bias’ I know I experience at the moment. This means that I will choose to look for evidence to support the claims of corruption I have personally experienced. I know that doesn’t mean that widespread child sexual abuse doesn’t exist. What it means is that I will naturally look for similar cases to mine.

My professional background just happens to have been (note have been due to not being able to work in the area since this happened to me) is as a forensic psychologist. At the time of my false arrest, I was working in Corrections dealing with some of the worst of the worst criminals. Yes, I can confirm that there are some pretty dangerous and sick individuals out there who do terrible things to children. I’ve had to listen to thier stories when doing assessments on them. Having to listen to thier stories however has not made me ‘support’ them in any way on the basis of their criminal behaviour, however I still hold onto the belief that everyone in this world deserves to be treated ethically, and that they do have certain rights that are not taken away from them on the basis of what they have done. The punishment is being incarcerated, and should never be as a result of vigilante reactions. This is why we have courts and goals!

I’ve also assisted quite a few victims of child sexual abuse. I’ve done this through counselling, as well as assessments for court when they seek compensation. I agree that some people are greatly affected by their experience of abuse. At times I went home and cried personally to myself because of some of the horrible stories I have heard. You can not help taking on some of the victim’s experience (no doubt this happens to cops dealing with these sorts of investigations – leading to the sort of Cognative Bias you allude to).

As it turns out, I also have a history of being a Police Officer – albeit for only 3 1/2 years, and a long while ago. I actually left because of a number of corruption issues I witnessed (not related to this topic), as well as waking up to the fact that the Police Service attracts certain people who may have psychological issues to start with about power. What my experience has done however has given me a little insight into the mind of a cop.

When you talk about cognitive bias, this could be applied to police dealing with difficult investigations. One thing that does seem to occur is when a person is faced with seeing such abuse day in and day out, it does tend to push one into looking for things because that’s what is expected (Selection Bias, which is actually a form of Cognative Bias)!

The issue of Child Sexual Abuse should never ever be taken lightly. It does occur – and I absolutely take that as a given fact, and it is definitely much more widespread than what is even reported in the tabloids.

In the case of child pornography however, we are talking about an issue that I believe, for good reason, is grossly exaggerated. Not because the incidence is under or over reported, not because I or anyone else has a cognitive bias or selection bias, but because the police often get things wrong.

Child pornography is definitely a problem, there is no argument about that at all. Enough bad guys get caught to support that, and in some cases, the police when adequately resourced, trained and balanced in their perspective, do a great job.

What has tended to happen is that the ‘experts’ are undertrained, under resourced, and on top of that tend to go after ‘easy targets’ instead of the real crims.

Just to place things into perspective using actual police statistics that can be verified: During Operation Irenic in Australia, 303 search warrants were issued after a tip off from Interpol gave information to the Australian Federal Police consisting of ISP addresses that apparently accessed a site where Child Pornography was posted maliciously.

Out of the 303 search warrants, only 80 arrests were made, and 20 matters proceded to trial by summons. In effect, 100 people out of 303 investigations! Out of those 100, the DPP issued statistics that stated convictions resulted in 62% (nice numbers) and the reason they gave was that in the 38 cases that were dismissed, they could not prove the ages of the people concerned due to the subjects in the said pornography being of Asian descent and enough doubt was cast on the case to make a conviction unsafe or unreliable.

So, out of the original 303 investigations where searches were carried out, 62 people were convicted. During the operation, 3 people committed suicide – a small fatality rate of just under 1%. Of those who committed suicide, little is known about their circumstances or their cases except what the police have stated in the tabloids. They did however make a statement about how they ‘assess’ those accused or arrested for this crime for suicide risk. I do happen to know for a fact that this statement is an outright lie. I was never assessed for risk of suicide, nor has any of the other people I know who were arrested and aquitted ever been assessed for suicide!

Most people in my circumstances just ‘go away’ hoping to get thier lives back in order. Unfortunately that does not happen. One of my coping mechanisms is to ‘intellectualise’ the issue and research it in the hope that I will gain some answers for what happened to me.

I am also driven by an exaggerated sense of justice and ethics. This is because when I did start digging, I uncovered very significant issues that were just plainly wrong. These issues are currently under investigation and pretty close to being resolved. The police ethical standards unit have substantiated several things, including that the police who arrested me falsified their statements by withholding exculplitory evidence that could have cleared me instantly, they falsified the transcript of the actual search of my house, they conspired to cover up the assault that happened to me by one of the cops at my house (they recorded this), and a total of 22 other serious issues occured during the ‘investigation’ against me.

Fortunately, I had enough nouse to keep quiet. I recognised certain things in two of the police concerned, and that was the level of disgust they had for what they were investigating. When they did not find the files they were looking for (and by all accounts the descriptions they gave were disgusting), they did find a legitimate adult movie clip – which they used to arrest me on and to examine my computer further.

They did not find anything else. Their search was extremely thorough, and the computer tech they had on the day suspected that I was the victim of someone tapping into my wireless router.

I personally know that in the Police Service here, promotions are based on successful arrest rates. There is a lot of pressure to ‘perform’. This leads to yet another bias, because no one wants a cop who doesn’t catch any bad guys do we?

When I joined the Police Service as a young guy, I was full of ethics and idealistic thinking. I actually believed (still do – very strongly) that the job of a Police Officer is to investigate, gather evidence, and if the evidence does not support a prosecution (clears a person) then you have done your job properly. At the end of the day, Police do so much more than this, however the core business of Police in bringing Crims to justice is blurred by a huge range of factors.

I have never subscribed to the view that Police play a part in acting as Judge and Jury. They clearly do this when they adopt the strategy of naming and shaming an accused. In effect, a named and shamed accused is not afforded the presumption of innocence and is pronounced guilty by the media and public who just lap this stuff up.

Perhaps I’m a little bit ‘old world’ in still holding onto my beliefs, but at the end of the day I will not give up my beliefs for anyone.

When working at the Goal I was at before my wrongful arrest, I had an incident happen that illustrated the bias I am talking about above quite nicely. One job we had was to assess offenders – including child sex offenders and child pornography offenders for treatment programs. When doing this, you get to hear their stories, and a common reaction by the psych or counsellor would be to come back to the office and ‘sound off’ about what they heard, making judgement statements about the person they just interviewed. This happened one day, and I offered some insight spontaneously to my colleagues who were listening to the story. I said, you know, this person was once innocent. He was a baby once, held by his mother who must have had hopes and dreams about her totally innocent child. I wonder what happened along the way to have made this person commit such a crime? We all start out as innocent human beings, some choose to do things that are wrong and abhorrent, others choose a different pathway.

In terms of how peadophiles are treated, which is what the genesis of this thread was all about initially. Taking a totally punative approach to the issue negates any possibility of finding effective treatments and changing behaviour. In terms of how people are treated by the public (of which I had first hand experience), there is additional punishment prior to a person being found guilty (or innocent). The risk, given the sorts of statistics above is that a totally innocent person could be treated badly by the public simply because of an accusation, not proven fact.

The legal system is far from perfect, take the case of the last person who was hanged in Australia. He was found to be innocent after they administered the punishment. It’s a little hard to say you are sorry, after the punishment has been administered eh?

Same goes for people accused of child sex crimes. In the Western world (with the exception of France and maybe a couple of others) one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. That means that a person has the right to the presumption of innocence, and the Police adopting the strategy of naming and shaming people on the basis of an arrest (an accusation that has not been proven as yet) is wrong because it departs from the presumption of innocence.

The fact that it involves a sexual crime against children exacerbates the matter, simply because it invokes significant emotional feelings in most of us (meaning the public).

In essence, if a person is even accused of a crime such as child pornography and later proven to be cleared, your life is over. An accusation in this case is enough to ruin your life regardless of your innocence (smoking gun approach?), your rights are disregarded, you get assaulted by vigilante members of the public, you lose your career, and most times you lose your family. Sometimes you lose your life, because as these realities become apparent, it becomes impossible to deal with and suicide becomes a viable solution for the extent of the pain caused by being falsely accused.

It’s not an issue one can bring up with most people either, so support is in most cases completely lacking.

Here in lies the heart of the issue for anyone affected by the public reactions to such crimes and accusations. The mere hint that a person has been accused of a crime against a child leads to general feelings of abhorence and disgust. Open your mouth, and you get shot down. Try to state facts and statistics, people shoot you down (or try to). Try and state your case as to why you are innocent, – well after all there was an accusation, and the police get it right 100% of the time don’t they – therefor lets treat this person like they are guilty! Lets ignore his Human Rights. Lets ignore the fact that he is entitled to the presumption of innocence. Lets just persecute him, because it’s the ‘rightous’ thing to do. (Note I said rightous, not right!).

It’s a very complex issue. No one has the answer, and most people (myself included) struggle with the emotional reactions the issue envokes.

What is needed, is open discussion to examine the issues. There is no place for dogma, nor is there any place for making presumptions based on mere emotions alone.

Fear is the factor behind much of the emotional reactions bought out by discussions like this. Recognise it, examine the facts, don’t accept what anyone says as fact, unless it can be verified. Find out what is actually going on out there in terms of actual people’s experiences (such as my own for example).

At the end of the day just keep in mind the following statements:

Lack of evidence is not evidence!

Having an opinion based on actual experience, although anecdotal, is not invalidated by the experience. Though hard to generalise (impossible in fact), it should provide a genesis for further exploration of the facts and research.

Cheers, KK