If you keep a moral belief only because of moral disgust (meaning it’s unjustified), it’s therapeutic to at least acknowledge it. I have a belief that [consensual] incest is disgusting and wrong. The paradox is that I know this is false, that there’s absolutely no reason to believe it. People go absolutely apeshit over incest (see a thread I started years ago just to see what people would say). But the arguments can be refuted by a hamster:
- It’s unnatural — the same old line’s been used to prove the immorality of homosexuality, interracial marriage, contraception etc. Sorry. The answer’s always “so what?” (being unnatural doesn’t make something bad) and “no it isn’t” (eg. 10–15% of college students reported some childhood sexual contact with a brother/sister).
- It’s universally condemned — this was also used against interracial marriage etc. Again: so what? And again: no it isn’t. It’s universal to have some kind of incest taboo, but the limits vary a lot. In many cultures it’s common for first cousins to marry (with up to 50% of marriages being between first cousins).
- It causes birth defects — finally a somewhat true statement (although apparently the best strategy is to actually marry your 3rd cousin). But if that’s reason to outlaw incest we need to outlaw drinking/smoking during pregnancy (which we don’t and it would be a big deal to do this). We’d also need to prevent 2 carriers of a genetic diseas from procreating. Finally despite what you hear on the news, we’re not living in the 12th century. Sex ≠ babies. 2 sisters having sex, or a heterosexual incestuous couple using contraception will demolish the argument.
- People who were brought up together shouldn’t be together — umm, because…? I’ve heard this one before. It’s priceless, the ultimate non-sequitir. This suggests that two childhood friends should avoid romantic relationships. This of course happens very often. I’m not aware of studies suggesting such couples are psychologically/emotionally worse off than the average couple. This argument is grasping at straws.
- It makes me personally uncomfortable — at last, the truth! Yes, it certainly does.
So, there’s no reason not to legalise it. The only immoral case is a heterosexual couple not taking contraceptive precautious. Even that’s no slam dunk. There’s the obvious correlation with child abuse but just like fantasies of pedophilia and acts of child abuse have merged in our minds so have incest and child abuse. If you’re raping someone, the presence of incest does nothing to change the brutal nature of the act. If we keep incest statutes as a legal instrument against abusers, we should at least admit it.
On another note, incest is only a matter of degree. We’re all related, descending from a common evolutionary ancestor, so everyone on earth is some cousin of yours. Sometimes a close one if you live on an island. It’s an evolutionary quirk to distinguish between the in-group (largely relatives) and out-group, as if there’s something fundamental about these 2 groups.
Anything producing moral panic should be viewed skeptically. People even feel a need to verbally state “that’s sick” to incest stories from the news, as if to make sure everybody knows they don’t approve. Even if you agree with the arguments-from-disgust, consensual incest isn’t the end of the world.
116 comments ↓
kinda takes the fun and mystery out of dating.
“So, I guess I’ll see you at home then…”
But it’s just sex, right? Between people who love each other. I love my friends. Can you do a post about “friends with benefits”? Please? I’ll be your best friend!
Hey why not? If both parties consent, who’s to stop them?
Doesn’t take the mystery out if the person you’re dating happens to be a relative you don’t know about (which happens more often than you’d think)!
Interestingly, for us humans, number 4 is essentially a tautology saying “siblings shouldn’t be together” – as the only way we have of telling who is our sibling is that we were brought up together. That’s why the incest taboo kicks in when we imagine having sex with our adoptive siblings but not your twin who was separated from you at birth.
The incest taboo is perfectly natural; most organisms don’t want to mate with their siblings if they can avoid it. Reproduction does lead to birth defects and probably general immunological weakening of the offspring. But, like you say, sex is divorced from reproduction in our case so there is absolutely no reason to condemn it out of hand.
For me this is very much the case of “gross, would never do that myself, but who am I to whine about what other people do when it’s a victimless crime?”. Makes it easy to understand people who think homosexuality is wrong, even as I feel superiour because I’m not trying to forbid anyone their fun.
Yes, this does give some empathy to people that think other sexual behaviours as gross. I don’t think most people will get to the same attitude to incest as to homosexuality but who knows?
All I can say is this opinion of mine’s never been put to the test — nobody I know is in an incestuous relationship. Perhaps if it did happen I’d find some other rationalisations against it not on the list…
It would be more accurate to say that you are not aware of any incestuous relationships among the people you know. Those of us who are involved with a relative go to great pains to keep it a secret, whether it is a past involvement or a present on-going affair. The incidence of most paraphilias is 3% of the population, incest is no different. For every 30 people, roughly 1 has experienced incest at least once in their life. This incest may have taken the form of a one-off encounter that they do not wish to repeat, or it may be an ongoing relationship. As for me, I was involved with my sister when we were younger. Our relationship developed out of mutual attraction and youthful curiosity. The fact that we were siblings never seemed like a reason to avoid being sexual with each other, just a reason not to get caught. We were intimate on a regular basis for over three years, only stopping when changes in our lives separated us geographically. It has been over 20 years since we were involved and neither of us has any regrets. We we both to find ourselves single again, becoming a couple once more would be a definite possibility.
Consensual incest isn’t affected by the laws against it, anymore than the laws against homosexuality prevented gays in decades past from being gay. Incestuous couples simply keep their relationship “in the closet” just as gays once did. This isn’t going to change anytime soon and in truth it doesn’t need to. The laws serve to protect children from sexual abuse, and I’m perfectly willing to be inconvenienced a bit if children are protected. I guess it really is “for the children,” an argument that I normally reject as an appeal to emotion.
Hi Hans — thanks for sharing some of your story. I think I meant that I’m not *aware* of anyone like this in my life but don’t know, it came out in a more standard way.
I’m not sure about the 3% statistic, I assume it would be very different for different paraphilias — plus there’s the question of what constitutes paraphilia.
In terms of the law, you are potentially affected by the laws if they mean you could go to jail as a result of the laws. If we want to protect children from abuse than simply legalising incest between people over the age of consent should do the trick. Of course there are complications with emotional abuse etc. but still I’m not sure criminalising relationships like the one you had with your sister is giving children any EXTRA protection.
Fantastic post. I used to worry somewhat about the reproductive aspect, but you’re right- there are many other things we allow that creates deformities or recessive diseases, so where’s the fairness? (Not to mention that the whole argument seems to me to be very roundaboutly ableist and very nearly smacking of eugenics). Reproductive freedom is more than just abortions- it’s about being able to have the children you want to have.
Anyways, yeah. Incest has been weighing on my mind a lot lately. My family = ugh! no way!, but I find the stories of others in consensual incestuous relationships to be fascinating. They’re the new pariahs.
Hi Gwen (that is your name, right)? Thanks for commenting — I’ve never thought of the eugenics angle before. To be fair, people who are the result of a close incestuous union are generally very sick to the point where you could well argue against such reproduction. I think the difference with eugenics is one of degree.
Interesting looking blog by the way, it’s in my reader so keen to see some more posts. Such a shame about Google putting adult blogspot blogs behind a warning screen — did this happen to you recently and has it slowed your search traffic?
I am homosexual and have been aware of it and out since puberty. Given my experiences, I would never condem any form of consenual intimacy. It seems such an intuative truth that 2 (or 3 or 4…..) consenting people should be allowed to enjoy any kind of intercourse of their choosing, and that it is not mine or anyone else’s affair.
what really struck me about this Blog is the utterly refreshing open mindedness of all of the contributers. It made me realize that perhaps I anticipate closed mindedness and condemnation on a daily basis in my own life……and that is something of an epiphany. Thank you to all that contributed to this. It made a real difference to me.
Thanks Craig — I guess the only thing to add would be that there are people out there who are more accepting than what you might be used to — perhaps move to a bigger town?
You may want to have a look at Debatepedia’s pro/con article on this topic. We’ve integrated some of the arguments from your article into Debatepedia’s pro/con article.
http://wiki.idebate.org/index.php/Debate:_Legalization_of_adult_incest
Thanks Brooks.
Interesting site, I’ll have to add it to my ever-growing list of sites to check out. Being a wiki I’m sure it’s got heaps of material and will steal a lot of my time!
Weddings are a heck of a lot cheaper…
The birth defects thing seems to be the evolutionary driver for the moral disgust reaction, although I doubt there is actually that big of a deal unless there are recessive genetic problems that would eventually come to the fore.
I have to say I feel no moral outrage at this, but I am an only child
well we know that breeding between siblings or parent-and-child increases the odds of genetic problems a LOT. cousins not as much (although if you examine the european royal families they all had hemophilia and the usual array of recessive genetic diseases from cousin breeding) — 2nd or 3rd cousins much less.
Wikipedia disagrees
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest#Biological_consequences_of_inbreeding :
Inbreeding does not directly lead to congenital birth defects per se, it leads to an increase in the frequency of homozygotes.[34] An increase in homozygotes has diverging effects. A homozygote encoding a congenital birth defect will produce children with birth defects, but homozygotes that do not encode for congenital birth defects will decrease the number of carriers in a population. The overall consequences of these diverging effects depends in part on the size of the population. In small populations, as long as children born with heritable birth defects die before they reproduce, the ultimate effect of inbreeding will be to decrease the frequency of defective genes in the population; over time the gene pool will be healthier. In larger populations, however, it is more likely that large numbers of carriers will survive and mate, leading to more constant rates of birth defects.
i think this supports what i said: in large populations this leads to a more constant rate of birth defects. in small populations it does not, but only because the children die before they reproduce — which is definitely a case of harm even though it does not harm the long term genetic pool. the effect is thus indirect.
Constant inbreeding would indeed lead to either the harm of common infant mortality or the harm of increased incidence of genetic disorders, but a single coupling would merely be a risk factor – much like couples having children in their 40′s have a much larger chance of having a child with Down’s Syndrome, but we do not outlaw the over 40′s from having relationships or children.
A bit of consistency in the law is what I am looking for. And people’s opinions too (not directed at you, michael, you seem to be able to hold a thought in your head without your gut telling you what to think about it.)
Michael , you are absolutely right. The moment a society decides to grant equality and human rights to all without discrimination, it loses its right to criminalize things just because they dont seem morally correct or do not conform to the tenets of some religious text.
Of course if the state legally recognizes racial equality, gay marriage etc , there is absolutely no logical legal defense for criminalizing consensual incest. The pro – gay marriage activists often trash the “slippery slope” theory that granting gay marriage will lead to incest , beastiality etc. The question is not whether there will be widespread occurence of these behaviors. Even if one consensually incestuous couple comes up and says that they want the state to grant them the right to get married, you cannot decline them the right by defining their behaviour to be deviant and something that is not socially acceptable, by saying that the society is not ready for you. It is like telling a Amazonian tribesman that you cannot enter the country since our society has not seen people like you before. If an individual has the right to do whatever he / she feels like as long as it does not cause any harm, you have no legal defense to criminalize not only incest but also euthanasia, demand for a polygamous marriage ,and even seemingly ridiculous things such the right to roam around stark naked on the streets.
As for people saying that incest is not *that* prevalent in the society, 200 years back people would have said the same thing about homosexuality. It is because it is considered social taboo that no one comes out and speaks about it. The common defense for anti – gay rights wing was that all human cultures denounce homosexuality and hence heterosexuality is somehow embedded in human nature and any other sexual behaviour should be deviant. The same is said of incest today. However,the number of pornographic sites catering to incestous fetish thrown by a simple google search indicates that there are enough people who do fantasize about this and keep them in business.
In my teens I personally had a moment where me and a first cousin had a moment of intense and unmistakable mutual sexual attraction , which we didnt act upon.Had it not been considered a taboo , who knows today we might have been together. This cousin had been staying with my family for a long time and was almost like my real sister. As you can see from my vague and anonymous name , I am still scared of accepting such a thing in public.
Thanks desiguy, my only 2c is that there’s a big difference between how many people might fantasise about incest compared to how many actually engage with it.
But as you pointed out this is beside the point — as long as there’s one couple that wants to get married it’s the same as 100 million.
Interesting argument. I personally went through four foster homes as a child and had six foster sisters before finally being adopted just before my eighteenth birthday. To put it bluntly my oldest foster sister (later adoptive sister) was gorgeous ( I met her when i was fifteen and she seventeen) but we never did anything about it, mainly because we had both been brought up as Catholics and therefore believed it was ‘disgusting’
Without going into the details we WERE very definitely attracted to one another for a long time (well into my own mid twenties) and only the fact that our religion and law said it was wrong ( because we were LEGALLY siblings) prevented us from beginning a genuine sexual relationship. For years we carried guilt over being attracted to each other at all and that put a massive strain on our relationship in every aspect of our lives.
I wonder how much damage we did to ourselves in defending what may well have been an indefensible position. Would we have been better off simply accepting the fact that we loved each other AND wanted each other? I will never know ( I’m in my forties now and my sister is nearly fifty) but your artyicle has definitely given me a great deal of food for thought.
A further point for consideration is that despite the establishment’s enormous efforts to show their disgust (especially western democracies) for several hundred years Royal families would ONLY marry inside their own bloodline, by world war one almost every crowned head of europe was at least a first cousin to every other crowned head. Incest was justified by these families as ‘political marriage’ or ‘dynastic’ among others. Such hypocrisy simply shows the inconsistency of the minds condemning consensual incest today, especially the various church leaders who claim to uphold ‘moral rectitude’ and politicians who claim they are ‘protecting people from abuse’
In my opinion what goes on between consenting adults in private is no one’s business but their own. i freely admit my opinion may well be influenced by my own brush with this subject and that it is a highly emotive one but thank you for posting such a rational blog and giving all the readers something to think about.
I think the case of legal siblings is pretty unique in that I doubt it would even be a disgust issue for many non-Catholics (or even Catholics). However I guess it’s a good point — in that if people would be more ok in the case of non-biologically-related siblings, what else other than disgust can be the driving force behind condemning related siblings? (If reproduction’s no issue)
Also I doubt there’s such a big establishment “campaign” against incest and I’m not sure it’s special to western democracies. There are many places in the world where cousin marriages are a lot more common for cultural/population reasons, but then again there would be rural places in Europe with the same conditions.
My girldfriend and I engage in sexual activities with her mother and her sister. We are all consenting adults and there was never any contact when my girlfriend was a minor.
However, an issue has come to the fore. Besides having to deal with the bigotry surrounding our being a lesbian couple, my girlfriend is now having emotional difficulties concerning our consensual activities and it has led to depression. The problem, however, is not the sexual contact. It never seemed “wrong” to any of us and we are all educated people. The problem is stemming from the taboo mantra in our culture. My girlfriend is being emotionally damaged by the perception of the public, not the sex. We have lost all of our friends and there is a danger of my girlfriend losing her job.
I was wondering if anyone knows of any groups online where people who engage in the practice of consenual, adult incest may relate to one another and discuss the reaction of the public. I have been unable to locate anything other than groups who consider it a crime and emotionally damaging. My girlfriend doesn’t need to be treated as a victim of incest. She isn’t. She need to reach catharsis concerning the bigotry of the public.
Thanks
Hi Sasha
I don’t know any such online groups but I’m sure they exist. Am I right that very few people know about this and the trauma is more the perceived disapproval of society? In this case I guess the best thing to help would be some counselling — but of course there’s the problem of finding a therapist that your girlfriend can trust. Or is there some direct emotional damage?
It never seemed “wrong? to any of us and we are all educated people.
I’m not sure what being educated has to do with it. I’d say for most people the incest taboo is a biological gut feel that rational argument is not likely to dislodge much.
Thank you for responding Michael.
I have to say the disapproval is not a perceived disapproval however. One of her coworkers knows and disapproves so heavily that everday my girlfriend goes to work she fears being fired. The odd thing is, her mother was a professional psychologist, retired.
Moreover, there does seem to be an intellectual element to it. It has been a conscious decision on all of our parts. We even discussed it prior to any activity.
As for groups, I am still unable to locate anything that even remotely has any similitude to a group where she can speak with people who are not encouraging her to continue for their own kicks or condemning her.
I’m a bit unsure of what you mean by an intellectual element — although you discussed it beforehand I would imagine the actual motivation not to be intellectually-based (in the same way it isn’t for most human interaction)? I’d say almost no actions are purely intellectually-based in a way that’s divorced from non-intellectual values and desires.
Has your girlfriend considered one on one therapy, where she might be less vulnerable compared to being under the scrutiny of a voyeuristic group? Although direct therapy might have its own problems.
Hello Michael I couldn’t help but feel for Sasha, I can’t help her with the online group, maybe it would be an idea for her and her girlfriend to discuss starting one?
I avytually do think though that it’s the intellectual issue that may be causing her girlfriend such problems, the more intelligent you are then the more you are likely to PERCEIVE disapproval in the people around you, intelligent people are usually more sensitive to unspoken criticisms, even if the actual ctiticism doesn’t exist. My initial comments to this blog give some testimony to that, my adoptive sister and I felt our emotions were visible to everyone and that there was almost a ‘secret whispering campaign’ going on.
One on ome therapy was enormoudly helpful for myself, my counsellor did NOT judge or even try to tell me about the ‘morally correct’ path (the quoyayion marks are deliberate)
Sasha’s girlfriend may be well advised to go down that route or perhaps Sasha herself could go along with her for moral support, at least for the initial sessions?
I hope she finds peace, in my honest opinion based on what Sasha has written they have done nothing wrong, I only wish I’d had their courage when i was eighteen and my sister was twenty, we had the chance and chickened out, a decision i regret to this day.
All the best to you and your girlfriend Sasha.
Hi Peter — good to know that you had a positive experience with one-on-one therapy. Perhaps this is something worthwhile to try for anyone in a situation similar to Sasha’s who stumbles onto this post.
And to echo the sentiment, Sasha, good luck to you and yours
I tend to think of it as a deviate behavior (like homosexuality, BDSM, scat, fetish) as opposed to a perverted one (pedophilia, necrophilia, bestiality).
So my view is that as long as it is consensual and kept in the closet (i.e., not foisted on the rest of us), then it’s perfectly acceptable.
Yep, how dare “they” shove it down “our” throats? By telling us they exist they’re violating our human rights! Someone should call the UN! Oh, wait
My guess is that the instance of consensual sibling incest is widely under-reported. My brother and I sort of stumbled into it, and have grown much closer as a result.
I would have kept our secret until my dying day, but recently a close friend of mine confessed that he and his sister also fool around. Both of us have discussed that a big part of the attraction is that it we have to keep it hidden.
I would be mortified if it got out, especially to our parents, and I don’t ‘date’ my brother, but its definitely a fun aspect of our lives.
I understand how most siblings would never consider it, and even find the concept repulsive, but with similar age, proximity, and other dynamics, it has to occur more often than anyone would expect.
Consensual sex between siblings is far more common than is generally believed. My sister (18 months older than me) and I started a sexual relationship whilst sharing an apartment attending the same out-of-town university when I was 19. It lasted for three years to our mutual enjoyment and satisfaction. We do not come from a dysfunctional family, have no hang-ups about it, and it lasted 3 years until we completed our studies. Both are now engaged in a relationship with somebody else and we do not see each other regularly (except at family re-unions during holidays), but we often talk about it over the telephone and when we do get together and get the chance, we “celebrate” our 3 wonderful years.
I am a gay man and have been completely in love with my older brother since I was a teenager, it has prevented me from finding love elsewhere. It’s a totally hopeless scenario as he is straight, conservative and happily married, but I can’t let it go. Yes I want to have sex with him but I never will, some times I think I will tell him how I feel, despite knowing that it would destroy our familial relationship. I couldn’t live without him in my life. I worry about gossip as I’m sure some people notice me ‘light up’ when I’m around him. I do wish the lust and the fantasy would leave me in peace, they shame me greatly. It isn’t as though it is unrequited love, I know he loves me deeply, but I feel dishonest in accepting it and ache for something more. I have read that these types of feelings are narcissistic but I’m not sure I agree, it is more like emotional/moral flagellation. I’m more inclined to believe that I subconsciously employ desire for him whilst maintaining a stable familial relationship as false-justification for my cowardice in seeking a healthy relationship in the big bad world. I was widely otriscised throughout my childhood so am fearful of further rejection. Whatever the cause I have lived with it for so long now that my feelings are very real. I also sometimes think that the shame came first and I created this scenario as a place to hang it. (Bloody christianity!)
I think the whole question is best answered by what your mind is capable of handling. If you have no regrets or are content in your psyche and your partner is too, then who else matters?
My brother and I had a very intense sexual relationship for three very delightful years that started when I was fourteen and he was fifteen. We had sex several times a week and often twice a day. We were “found out? by my mother when I was almost sixteen. Since we are Hispanic and raised Catholic, Mama knew we were destined for Hell. First she threatened to tell our father and the priest and constantly berated us, but eventually gave up when we refused to stop no matter what. She did demand we both use contraceptives. I took the pill and my brother always used a condom after that. Papa was a very mean and stern man and I think Mama was afraid he would hurt or even kill us. My father traveled often and just as often neglected Mama for weeks at a time. One night she had a little too much wine and joined us in my bed. My brother made love to her for about six months until Father was moved to the home plant. As far as I know she never mentioned anything to him. When my brother graduated from high school he joined the army and a year later I went to college where I met my husband. We are both happily married now and often laugh and reminisce about our past sex lives. Neither of us regrets anything we did but we never did it again and we never told our spouses. That was seventeen years ago.
If you are comfortable with your life, to Hell with anyone who condemns you. If you knew their sins, yours would probably appear nil.
Paula, your story is proof that incest occurs in all societies, even communities which are conservative. I don’t know why the subject of deformed offspring should feature so prominently. My sister and I never considered having a child with each other, not because of the possibility of a deformed baby, but simply because we never wished to have one. We took all precautions to practise safe sex to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. Besides, the chances of deformity of a baby born from sibling parents in their early twenties are far less than that of a baby born from non-related parents with the woman in her late thirties.
If it is consensual, if the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy is removed, if it is done in private, if both derive enjoyment from it, why deny siblings the pleasure of a mutually beneficial and enjoyable sexual relationship (even if they are less than 18 years old)?
I have studed revlations sence 98 and now have the chance to coment on the line [they shall look but they shall not see] to any and all Christions. Start befor the Adom and Eve part that to some lmpleys insest and go to where it says, {let US MAKE MAN IN OWER IMAGE} And now I want you to read Psalm, you may need to read parilal = [more than one version at the same time ]I did not invent that. I found that they print them that way. Look at all of PSLAM but look for the line {my syster my bride} . Thats all you get for free . work at it and find it your self. The only way to see it all is to rember when john reseved Revlations He said dont ad or subreact, befor the counsel of Nicea whitch was hunderuds of years later.
Hank, I feel you are seeking approval, acceptance, or justification for your love for your sibling. Don’t let the opinions of others affect you. While I always loved my brother, in retrospect my desire for him may have been because of my fear of our father, now deceased. My brother was and is the diametric opposite of him. My brother was and is always smiling, laughing, and very compassionate towards others…he made everyone he met feel good. He is incredibly handsome and just melts my soul even now. I was the instigator of everything. Though I am younger and was only 14, I had lusted for him sexually for at least two years previous. I hated the day he graduated and joined the military. I was and am insatiable! My husband jokes about bringing in help. Our sexual experience was totally my doing and I accept whatever the consequences were, are, or will be. I told a couple of girls in college about my experience and they had similar feelings toward a member of their immediate families but never acted on it, or so they said…I felt that one of them was definitely lying. What is…is, so what? I know priests and all the clergy and most people in society would roundly condemn me to Hell, but that is their problem…they are not my judge.
Don’t look for approval or condemnation. Just accept yourself for what you are and kiss your sister for me.
Finally a reasonably rational discussion of something that is out there but covered up because of societal pressure and religious dogma.
I am 26 and married now but growing up I had a brother one year younger than me. When I was 17 I arrived home one Saturday and found my brother in our living room watching an adult movie. At first I was dumbstruck but I stood in a hallway watching him masturbate. I had never seen a porn flick and was caught in-between being grossed out watching it and the curiosity of watching Steven beating off. I watched until he ejaculated and was very surprised to see not only how big he was but the height and volume of his ejaculation stunned me. I just backed into the hallway as he used a kitchen towel to wipe himself off and made noise to warn him someone was there.
I let it go and giggled about it with my friends, one of who had a crush on Steven and was really curious now! One day several weeks later Steve and I were home alone for the weekend and I was planning on going out with my friends and picking up some guys who would buy us drinks and dinner and get nothing more than a hand-job. Ha ha! I saw Steve in the den of our home and sat down asking him if we could talk. He agreed. I asked him about porn movies and asked if he had ever seen one (knowing the answer anyway) and he told me he had three DVDs he found when a neighbor moved out and left them in their junk.
He showed them to me and I asked if he felt like watching one with me so I could ask him questions and he agreed. We popped in one called “Dinner Party” and watched it. About half-way into it I could see he clearly had an erection and I was very wet and feeling very sensitive down there. I asked him in a coy way, “Do these things do anything for you.” He told me honestly they did and made him horny. He even kiddingly pointed to his crotch and I could see his erect penis extending down his right leg an there was a wet spot there. He asked me, “Does it do anything for you?” and I just said, Maybe”. We finished the movie and I left with my friends. I found out later he had to relieve himself. We talked about things for a few weeks and when we had the house again we decided to watch another one but I can’t recall the name. During that one I saw he had a boner again and I kidded with him about it being stuck in there. He laughed too saying if he was alone he would “free the beast!” I responded, “I dare you.” Well he did and I was really surprised to see how big it was. Then I said “I dare you to jack-off right now,” figuring he would not, but I was wrong.
He just smiled and said, “You asked for it,” as he began doing it really slowly with his right hand lightly gripping it and moving from the base to almost the head. He is circumsized so I knew “dry wacking” was not so good. I’d left a few friction burns and teeth marks on a few guys before that. He would start breathing harder then he would slow way down and then start again. He started doing it aa little harder and faster and then said, “I can’t believe I’m doing this.” I was REALLY curious and asked him, “Want me to try?” He said, “That’s sorta wierd Bar, but what the f—.” I masturbated him for about 5 minutes until he came with a big old shot that ran down my hand and all over his stomach. Then he suddenly just stood up and left to the bathroom and came out fully dressed telling me he just felt too wierd. We stopped the movie and I tried to talk with him but he wasfor some reason really embarrassed so I let it go. I did not realize that once a guy has ejaculated he just kinda disconnects and because we were not really an intimate couple he was just doing what guys do and leaving like after a one-night-stand.
As days went by and I reassured him it was something that I was sure a lot of .”rothers and sister do and I wasn’t telling anyone. over the next several weeks we talked and watched movies together before I asked him, “Would you feel better if I did it in front of you?” He said, “Not better but curious.” So as the movie played and I saw his boner was really hard again, I just took off my shirt and bra and then took off my jeans and underwear. He was just looking back and forth between me and the TV and I laughed saying, “Ohh come on dude, you’ve always been curious. It ended up we did it together to ourselves and then next to each other using our hands. The first thing I noticed was the guy did not have any idea what he needed to doo to play with a girl. I did it as he watched and got off once. I took his finger and placed it right over my clit androlled it in circles to show him where it was. It took a few minutes but he got me off again. I did him again too and that was it for the day.
Over the next couple weeks we did it 2-3 times a week and even did it a couple times in my room while our folks were downstairs. There would have been no understanding in our house! One afternoon I just said to myself “hell with it,” and I asked him if he would let me suck him. He was surprised but said “I guess.” We turned out the lights so we didn’t have to look at each other to make it feel more anonymous but I had a blast. We giggled as I used too much teeth action and especially when I gagged and almost barfed over the side of the bed. We continued until he came in my mouth and I swallowed for him. The first thing I noticed was all guys pretty much taste the same! I asked him if he wanted to eat me but before he could reply I said, “No you will eat me and learn something.” After a few minutes of him uneasily touching with his finggers and licking like a slobbering dog I also learned that not all guys know what the heck they are ddoing when they try eating a girl out. He couldn’t get it right but he did with hig finger inside me and he thought it was pretty cool that he found an elusive or phantom g-Spot as he got me off twice making me shake like I was freezing. I think it was just nerves.
That same night as we laid on my bed and kissing as he played with my boobs I felt he was hard again so I started rubbing him up and down. As he was sucking on my boobs and nipples I just outright asked him, “Do you want to try doing it?” He was alll over the place again so I just told him to lay on his back. I straddled him and slid all the way down on his dick which reminded me how big he was and how much it hurt when panises ram into the back wall! I moved just a few pumps telling him, “Now you know what that feels like, but you need a rubber if we are going to finish this.” He agreed and I took one from my purse and rolled it down on him. It was the first time I’d ever seen a condom roll all the way out and still have bare wiener exposed. Well,, long story short, we did it with me on top and then missionary and he got off but I didn’t. I was disappointed when he said he could not keep going because it was too sensitive, but I never knew any guy who could get off twice in the same session. We kept playing with each other from my senior year in hugh school until I graduated college, during which time we both had relationships going (I married mine). After I got enggaged we stopped.
We still talk and joke about it but not with anyone else! Neither of us is screwed up in the head. We both have ‘powerful” careers and we talk almost every night. Not too long ago Steve stayed at our house for a weekend and one time he flashed my his boner from the bedroom door while my husband watched TV. I just kept rolling my eyes but nothing further has happened. I apologize if this aappears like I was writing some tawdry incest erotica crap, but it actually felt good to be able to share it and not have people who will freak out over it All those times we did it it felt great and was very physically satisfying, but it was nothing deeper than a “friend with benefit” thing for us both. So inconclusion I’ll just say that this was just something that happened and it must be one of the few times that the people involved did not end up all screwed up on drugs or alcohol and I am certainly not out engaging in promiscuous risky sexual behavior. I’ll be married to one man the rest of my life and have a little brother who cracks me up. Ah yes, kid stuff.
Thanks for reading,
Barbara in California
Paula, you write: “Hank, I feel you are seeking approval, acceptance, or justification for your love for your sibling.”
No, I don’t. Both me and my sister have no regrets, do not seek approval of the fact that we were lovers at college for three years (and have made love occasionally after we completed our studies and now live far from each other), and certainly do not seek justification for our acts. The simple fact is that we would do it all again if given the chance – only next time we would start earlier (in our case, whilst still living with our parents whilst we were attending high school). We regret the lost years of mutual satisfaction and enjoyment before we “discovered” that making love to a sibling is something very special. If society still largely condems incest, so be it. To be “coupled” physically with a sister is a feeling I have not experienced since whilst making love to other girls. Inserting your penis into your sister’s vagina exceeds everything else in erotic experiences. Pouring your cum into her pussy when you both experience an orgasm is very, very special. Lying together afterwards whilst you are still coupled, and falling asleep, involves an intimacy which cannot be expressed in words. And to know that it involves more than just the physical aspects of making love, is forever imbedded in our memories, just as Barbara writes in her excellent story above: “We still talk and joke about it but not with anyone else! ”
And as in the case of Barbara and her brother, we are not “screwed up” in the head, do not come from dysfunctional families (our parents are both professionals and we lived in an upper income neighbourhood), and both are professionals excelling in our respective careers.
A similar tale is told by a woman who is an academic, and had a sexual relationship with her brother, in the London Times at http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article4332635.ece
It is worth reading in full.
Hey! An old thread with new life! I was just thinking about an exciting development in my life and did a little search for consensual incest…eventually led here. I see there are some realists here! Here’s my story.
I am a twin…with my sister. My dad split when I was two years old. He made a career of the Navy, divorced Mom, married a Navy wench, made a new family, and I have never (to my knowledge) seen or heard from him…and I don’t want to. We were far from poor though. Mom owns a restaurant and some rental properties plus some other real estate. Plus we have a very rich aunt!
Anyway, we slept, bathed, and played together until we were six years old. Mom tried to make us sleep in separate beds then but we cried until she let us sleep together. She was so busy she didn’t have time to watch over us anyway. Finally, when we were twelve, she insisted we sleep in different beds because we might “discover? each other. Hell, we “discovered? each other when we were nine. It started out with us playing with each other’s different equipment in the bath. By ten we were doing oral. We had been banging each other regularly for almost a year by the time Mom split us up! My sis had real orgasms from the start but I didn’t really ring my bell until I was twelve. She would just vibrate all over and moan…even when she was nine! We balled like hell all through high school. When we went to college, our aunt (Mom’s sis) decided to move to France, where our uncle was from, but wanted to keep her house. It is located near Middleton, so she said we could stay there while we went to Penn State. Hell, it had everything…indoor pool and all. We banged ourselves silly for nearly four years. Talk about love! Every summer our aunt would pay our vacation costs to some different part of the world. We did a tour of Europe, Scandinavia, Pacific Rim nations, and a month in five South American countries. Twice we went as man and wife…what a thrill! Sis has always looked better than anything ever seen in centerfolds.
Then we did an idiotic thing: We decided to marry other people so we could have children. I married (don’t know why, except for her incredible body) a vegetarian religious nut. All she ate was nuts, berries, grain cakes, and raw vegetables…never even caught a cold! Couldn’t boil water! I ate fast food most of the time, except when I was grilling steaks. She was a lousy lay. Missionary only…nothing else! I did love her. Her perfectly healthy body died in a car accident two years ago (Dec. 2007 actually). I have two children by her, one nutty daughter that is a vegan and animal rights nut. My son, like me, loves animals too…to hunt and eat!
Sis eventually married an anal retentive finance manager who is a real wimp. If I look mad at him, he will wet himself. Disgusting coward, leaves a slime trail where ever he goes. Has a hand shake like a wet glove. Will never understand why Sis settled for him…except he is rich. They have one child, a scrawny, pasty chip off the old wimp.
Anyway, cut to the chase: Sis and I have gotten together over the years from time to time to really satisfy each other, since it didn’t happen at home. It’s the only time we are happy. My son graduated from college last year and my daughter will next year, so they are gone. My construction company is going great…thanks to your tax dollars and the State. My sis says she can’t take anymore of the wimp and is leaving him after her pussified son starts college…next year. He hasn’t layed her in two years. Believe me, anyone who can’t perform for her is dead, dead, dead. We just decided last week she is going to move in with me and we are going to spend the rest of our lives where we were meant to be: together. That is why I am so excited…We will be forty-six this year and we are still horny as hell! To think of the rest of our lives without each other is unacceptable! If anyone doesn’t like it, they can line up at my door and I will be glad to introduce their south entrance to my size thirteen boot. I told my children of our plans. My daughter said it was “gross?, but she is fairly liberal, really loves her aunt and me, so is willing to tolerate it. My son gave his usual ambivalent comment, “Whatever floats your boat.?
About five years ago, when my sis and I went by ourselves to celebrate Mom’s birthday, Mom talked about our spouses and remarked that it was too bad we couldn’t just marry each other…since we looked so good together. We laughed about it and then she told us she knew everything and had always known. What a kick in the head! I called her yesterday and told her what we were going to do and she said, “It’s about time!? I guess we are all nuts. Anyway, YOU PEOPLE ARE NOT ALONE! I have been rather cryptic here in an attempt to save space, but it is longer than intended anyway.
Well, I feel like I’m interrupting your conversation now, but oh well, you can continue on either side of this comment. Anyway, I’ve been researching what little I can find on consensual incest all over the internet, and this is the most openminded discussion I’ve seen, and one of the few places where I’ve found people who actually have personal experiences. I am writing a novel about a relationship between a brother and sister (and other things happen, obviously), andsince I don’t have any personal lived experience, I don’t want to mischaracterize everything. If there’s any personal experience or important tips you want to share, or you just want to email me randomly, mail me at ee_gm@hotmail.com. No promises that the book will be any good, or that it will even be finished, but I would like to increase the chances of either of these hapening.
My sister and I practiced lesbian incest for 5 years, when I was 10 until I was 15 (she was 13–18) — just tribbing, scissors style, pussy-on-pussy — nothing else. No kissing, no oral, nothing else, but we always had sure-fire orgasms doing it… However, I was rather innocent, and didn’t know what we were having even was sex, until much later, and then, I just considered it mutual masturbation on each-other, but I never realized it was considered lesbian sex, let alone lesbian incest, not until I was in High School, and read The Happy Hooker…
I was so shocked by that book and all that it described, and that’s when there was a real name put to our activity! I was so into boys and had boyfriends all through Junior High & High School, it just never occured to me that I was doing ANYTHING lesbianic — I just looked at what we did as being a form of masturbation on each-other, not some lesbian deviance… Best orgasms ever, to scissor my sister, we were both so warm and wet down there, grinding and humping against each-other… But once I had the full lesbian incest idea of what we were doing, we stopped, mostly because of me, and then it was off to college for her… And that was it! We have never done it since then, and we are happily married women with great husbands and homes and lives we enjoy…
And we come from a great family, loving nurturing parents, we’re all highly educated, so it’s not like we were abused, therefore, had sex together… It just happened… And it was great — I almost wish we were still doing it, but I believe in exclusivity, and would never cheat on my husband with my sister, with another woman, with another man, with a horny dog, with no-one! But those 5 years of multiple orgasms with my sis, rubbing pussies, scissors-style, were utterly yummy and fueled all of my masturbatory fantasies throughout high school, college, grad school and beyond, until marriage!
So it happens in “normal” families and it doesn’t make us perverts… It was obviously consensual, too, so no harm… If anything sexual is ever forced, then that’s NEVER a good thing… But this was totally consensual and totally hot! For 5 years… We never talk about it, and we’ve never told our husbands, it’s like those 5 years are so taboo, it’s never up for discussion, but I hope to someday…
I am a grad student majoring in Anthropology. I happen to be an agnostic at best and probably atheistically inclined. I have studied developing societies of the last seven thousand years and am quite convinced that social morays and the varied developmental peculiarities of any particular civilization are dependent upon such a myriad of internal and external stimuli it is impossible to dogmatically ascertain the origins or evolution of what is considered normal or abnormal in a given group. Certainly, the ancients looked upon the question of incest decidedly differently from the current view. Even today however, some countries do not find fault with it. The primitive tribes of South America have a totally divergent view than do most highly evolved religious groups.
It was common in ancient cultures such as Egypt and the Hittites, but scorned by contemporary cultures. In ancient times, Biblically speaking, incest became taboo in stages. By Abraham’s time (if one believes the Judean-Christian records) it was permissible to marry a half sister, which evidently is the relationship Sarah was to Abraham. Later, by the time of the Exodus, it was totally taboo to be nearer than a second cousin (according to my questions to rabbis—even those disagree). Being agnostic, I will leave the acceptance or denial of this story to the believer or non-believer. The critical item here is the fact that incest gradually grew in disfavor.
Essentially, the question or practice of incest is, or has been historically, determined by the evolution of the social order of a society. If, over years of practical experience, it is determined to be detrimental to the development of an ordered or practical structure, it is condemned or at least discouraged. Once religious orders evolve (yes, religions evolve!), they tend to develop a list of permitted or denied practices within their realm of influence. When they grow in influence to control a society with the power of armies, or other policing and enforcement agencies, their beliefs will become the norm and everything else aberrant and worthy of both condemnation and punishment.
This could go on (it continued for over one hundred pages in one of my reports) but I will respect the space limitations and conclude by stating the obvious. In the last several hundred years, it has proven, if not detrimental, then non beneficial for the practice of incestuous relationships to continue unabated in productive societies. Therefore, since those of power can determine its continuance or blatant practice, it is a risky behavior and one most probably best avoided so as not to draw the ire of those in authority. Society as a whole has determined through the experience of time that incest is not a viable alternative or even a desirable one, since any benefit is far outweighed by undesirable genetic ramifications. Therefore, even through the eyes of an agnostic or atheist, I would find nothing to recommend the practice to a rational human being. I would not condemn those involved in incest for I believe all are free moral agents. Basically, common sense does preclude the activity.
Dana, sure incest became unpopular, but certainly not during the past few hundred years. Napoleon scrapped the incest laws in France exactly 200 years ago, and the Netherlands, Belgium and some Scandinavian countries followed soon after. I am not saying that incest is popular in these countries, but practising it is not a felony. (Incest between and adult and minor is, however, punishable by law in all of these countries). And it is only a century ago that incest was made illegal in the United Kingdom, and that only after long debate and only after a compromise was struck to allow marriages between first cousins (without which, for example, the British royalty would not have continued to exist).
So: the recent history is somehat different from your historical perspectives. Furthermore, the situation has changed drastically during the past half century, with the advent of STD’s (specifically HIV/Aids) on the one hand, and the availability of fail-safe contraceptives on the other hand. Sex has largely lost its prime function for procreation; it is mainly practised for recreation (fun, mutual enjoyment). Sleeping around has become dangerous due to STD’s, and sex partners nowadays limit themselves to people whose sexual history is known to them (and most often, this would include family members).
Your reasoning that: “Society as a whole has determined through the experience of time that incest is not a viable alternative or even a desirable one, since any benefit is far outweighed by undesirable genetic ramifications. Therefore, even through the eyes of an agnostic or atheist, I would find nothing to recommend the practice to a rational human being” is mainly based on the procreation basis of sex. If all precautions are taken to prevent unwanted pregnancies, if it is consensual, if no adult/minor sex is involved, then no “undesirable genetic ramifications” come into play, and incest is practised (albeit still very much in secrecy) more and more. Besides, the average age of first sexual encounters has decreased appreciably during the last half century, and the availability of a sibling tends to to facilitate safe sex within the family.
Bill,
The moderator of this thread said he preferred the subject of comments to be of a moral basis. I gave simply the secular evolution of events. As I leave purist reflections of morality to others, it is necessary to go to those who base their thought processes upon which concepts of “right? and “wrong? are based. If morality is, as some would have, the ethics de jour, then what you have is moral anarchy. If you define morality for yourself under those rules, then you can not constrict others accordingly for they have the same right to determine morality as you. Generally, morals must be recognized standards of conduct sanctioned by some arbiter or ethical authority. For the humanist or atheist, it can be difficult to ascribe any particular view as having standing as authoritative.
In my studies of comparative religions, the moral purists have a plethora of venues for establishing the ultimate Authority. As I mentioned before, religions evolve and as they evolve and acquire acceptance and adherence from those in secular authority, power is given to religionists to impose their standards and morals upon others under power and threat of force. Eastern religions are more bent to nature and are somewhat indifferent or flexible to such concepts as incest. The more dogmatic structured religions such as Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, are very definitive in their condemnation of various “deviant? behaviors. Mankind has always been cursed/blessed with rationalization. Anyone determined enough can rationalize himself into doing or accepting anything. The thief can justify his deeds in his own mind based on his desperate need. Murderers justify their killings because their victim “deserved? it. Despots justify mass murder, torture, and genocide whenever expedient.
So as to morals, one sage said, Proverbs 16:25 “There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.? Just because you think something is “right? or harmless does not necessarily make it so. The acceptance of some standard promulgated by one society fails justification to encumber another.
So, who is the moral authority? Man? Then you are the arbiter. A higher power defined as God? Then the moral authority does not rest with man. If God, then which God and whose conflicting “Book? do you reference for guidance? If one is right, all others are wrong. The consequence of sex with family members being “convenient? is hardly justification for the practice. The concept of honor and character should prevent some activities. Though some would argue that if a crime, it is a “victimless? crime, it might not be true in the majority of cases. Society, or evolved civilization, certainly does have the right to establish certain values that will be accepted as “morals? whether or not we agree with all of them. Stealing, killing, and heinous crimes have been rejected as contrarian since time immemorial. During the evolution of society, lying, adultery, and other “soft? social deviations have proved detrimental to a peaceful and productive society…so laws were passed and morality established condemning such activity.
You are the final determining factor as to your moral values regardless of any outside input. So choose your path…but choose wisely and with great consideration. If you are comfortable…deep within your psyche…and you will know if you are trying to fool yourself…then that is the right way for you.
I’m glad that this thread continues. The comments are great.
I wrote earlier about how my brother and I ‘stumbled’ into a sexual relationship. I’m in my late teens, and others my age tend to have a different attitude toward consensual incest. Teen forums have a number of threads about incest and polls show that at least 50% of teens think that consensual incest is okay.
I think that technology makes sex more accessible. I could never bring a boy into my room at fourteen, but I was having phone sex. Online, we would masturbate socially and from there, it’s not a huge leap toward including siblings…especially if the teens don’t see it as a taboo.
@Dana
“The concept of honor and character should prevent some activities.”
The concept of honor? Seriously? The same concept that leads a father to kill his raped daughter? The same concept that makes people hide their disabled children?
The concept of harm should prevent some activities, all else is forcing your morals onto someone else with no justification.
“Society, or evolved civilization, certainly does have the right to establish certain values that will be accepted as “morals? whether or not we agree with all of them.”
Where did this right come from?
What gives person A the right to tell person Z what to do if there is no impact on A? Are you saying that at some critical number of people (10, 100, 1,000?) they gain the right to tell consenting adults what they can and cannot do in the privacy of their own bedrooms?
Keddaw?
Let me reiterate: I condemn no one!
You have posited a strange concept. In my studies I have yet to discover any society that considered it honorable to rape, kill, maim, or otherwise violate their own progeny. How does that relate to honor? I only comment from the perspective of anthropology. If you read carefully what I have written, you will see that I am non-judgmental. Should the desire overwhelm certain of society and bestiality be their driving force, I will not be there with the pitchfork. Probably wrongly, I have assumed only the position of “observer? to the human condition. However, the local constabulary, if informed, will intervene because most societies have rejected any rational excuse for such behavior. It is deemed beneath the dignity of the human experience. Yes, honor, character, and integrity are all that separate humans from the low animals. Chickens, dogs, cats, etc., take little concern in their breeding partners. A few animals mate for life, but not as a rule. Those “human? qualities preclude the exercise of expedient gratification for its own sake with no regard to consequences.
You evidently considered tangentially what I said. You want to argue “rights.? If you re-read what was written, you will realize that “Might Makes Right.? If you could ask anyone who experienced the Inquisition, you would find it to be true. Those in Power take unto themselves that “right? to tell you what to do. In ancient times, and in modern Muslim countries, fornication wrought the death penalty. It mattered not if done in secret or consensually, but only if discovered. The caveman with the biggest stick determined the law. Don’t be offended, for I write not the rules. In the US, if you persistently refuse to pay taxes, and object strongly enough and refuse to be incarcerated, you will be “terminated with prejudice.? If you violate any other law (including morality laws) sufficient force will be brought to bear to remedy your actions and adjust your attitude.
This whole discussion is supposed to be centered on Morality. As I said, if you question morality, amorality, or immorality, you have to have a point of origin or standard. In your world, you want the common law definition of morality: If two people (regardless of lineage) participate in some activity in seclusion consensually, it is fine. However, that attitude defies both religious and humanist theory. Humanist theory states that man is the ultimate being and should strive on that basis to exalt himself to higher aspirations and levels of conduct. Of course, Humanism has as many variants as religion. If there is no standard of decency you hold sacrosanct, then I submit you are morally bankrupt and the question of morals is not yours to debate. If you regard not religion or secular standards as behavioral guides, then you are a law unto yourself and need to read the last paragraph I wrote before: “You are the final determining factor…[a]nd that is the right way for [you].?—until a superior force dictates its will upon you. But don’t call it morality.
Dana
I thought I had offered my two cents to this discussion, but feel I must comment one more time. I read your comments with great care and several times. I must say that I agree with your assessment of humanity from an academic position and you effectively straddle all fences intellectually. I have no doubt your college papers exceed 100 pages and I assume there is a monster book in your future. That said, I think you will agree that “morals? is plural. While I had a strict religious indoctrination as a child, I also had/have a situation that religion did not answer, no matter how many trips I took around the rosary. By age twelve, I was masturbating continually. I am not a nymphomaniac in the strict sense of the word because they hardly ever attain orgasm. I do, and very strongly. If my brother had not been available, I would have screwed every boy and man in the neighborhood. Could you not agree that he saved me from a fate worse than incest? When I said we had sex several times a week, I was not exaggerating. Some times it was before breakfast and as soon as we got home from school, if Papa was not home. On weekends, after Mama quit hassling us, it was several times a day and night. When he could not perform, at least he would take me home orally. I worked in an office for five years and it was sheer misery. Trips to the storage rooms, restrooms, or anywhere I could relieve myself… Even after having children it has not abated. Fortunately I work at a home office now transferring and certifying data for three companies…often with a vibrator between my legs. My friend suggested analgesic creams to desensitize me and psycho therapy, but I enjoy it…greatly. I can have twenty orgasms a day and she hardly ever has one. It is definitely not a curse. At any rate, I am thankful for my brother and his help…besides, most of the time it was not having sex, it was making love. I love him more than anyone, a great husband included.
Am I immoral? I don’t really care. I suppose as one man said, “We all create God in our image.? I will not lie. I will not steal. I never took so much as a sheet of paper or a paper clip from my job. I will not defraud. I will not take credit for something I did not do. If someone gives me more change than correct, or some item ends up in my groceries unpaid, I will correct it as soon as I discover it. I am honest to a fault. I will not gossip. I give willingly to charities and not because of some religious pressure. I visit people in nursing homes twice a month just because I enjoy it. Do I have all the “correct morals? except for incest? Or, because I indulged in incest, do I lose all rights to other morals. As you said, we all rationalize our own permissions to our desired behavior. There are some things I hold “sacrosanct? and some that are just not on my radar. I too have read the scriptures…?there is none righteous, NO NOT ONE.?
I would respectfully submit that you need to abandon your post as Chronicler of Human Events Past and Present, and jump head long into living part of this human experience. Come on in, the water is sometimes turbulent, but it beats the hell out of just being an observer.
Dana, I never said you personally condemned anyone, but by allowing society to foist its irrational morals onto innocent people you possibly do worse.
Some Muslim (and probably other) societies have a concept of honor killing. This involves shame on the whole family when the daughter is not a virgin or the son is gay etc. etc. Simply google honor killings and you’ll find many – I am confused in what you are studying, it is certainly not current affairs!
wiki: The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) estimates that the annual worldwide total of honor-killing victims may be as high as 5,000.
In terms of my own morals I have some principles that i regard as much higher than my own morality. The concept of freedom and autonomy matters more to me than my own moral conceptions.
For example I consider the practice of two men making love rather disgusting (I think the same about two ugly heterosexual people too) but the principle of autonomy and harm mean that I cannot, would not and should not interfere in what two consenting adults opt to get up to if it harms no-one.
I refuse to get my morality either from bronze-age misogynists or modern day gut-reactionists. If you want to say something is immoral and can’t say why then you have no right to stop anyone else doing it.
If people want to stop sibling incest and the best two reasons they can come up with are “yuck” and “birth defects” then they deserve to be ignored if not derided.
A comment that came in an email from Craig: Being cogent helps an argument. Paula may be able to help you on that one.
@michael
No, they’re not ‘violating our human rights’ – just our sensibilities.
I am from the USA, where people tend to be pretty uptight about such things. (Like, if you saw your teenage daughter naked, then you’ve raped her – some people really are that warped.) So, the point I was trying to make is it should be ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ on a societal level, if only just to keep the peace.
But what would you say is not keeping the peace? Given that for same sex couples any sign of existence is interpreted by some bigots to be “shoving it in our faces”.
You left out quite a bit of how variable the definition of incest has been. In both the Incan and Egyptian cultures, God required brother sister marriage to keep the royal blood pure. One culture required that mom sleep with her son if his wife complained about his sexual perfomance. She raised him, she had to fix him to the satisfaction of his new wife. Some cultures required a daughter to sleep with dad before he went hunting, to give him extra powers on the hunt. Voltaire (common law) married his niece, now that would be incest, yet our founding fathers respected Voltaire as the champion of reason. Many of those same founding fathers married cousins and would be guilty of incest. Look up Navaho incest laws and see if you can even make sense of them. The one constant about incest is it isn’t a rational rule.
I have been called an air-head. It seems I am always saying or doing something stupid. I can see by what you write that all of you are better educated than me. Forgive me but I don’t really know what moral is. It seems that no one here is really sure either. Some say they don’t care and others write really good complicated stuff that I don’t follow too good.
You will laugh but I have had sex with three members of my family…my father, my brother, and a cousin. They all told me it was all right and now, I am in 11 grade, I wonder because my friends make fun of another girl we know who had sex with her brother. My friends don’t know about me. If it is so wrong for her to have sex with her brother what about me? Am I crazy or what? It didn’t seem bad to me to do what I did. Even my daddy says as long as I don’t tell anyone, who cares. Mom says if it is ok with her then no one else matters. But I know Mom won’t have sex with anyone but dad so this whole thing doesn’t make since. I can’t talk to anyone stranger about this. Maybe some of you smarter than me can help. I really am ok with it and I really like it, especially after I do it and my dad and brother and cousin treat me so good. They really love me. Am I ok or what? Or does this make me even more stupid? Can you help? I use protection all the time.
Eunice,
Let’s assume for the moment that you are who you say you are and not some college student blowing smoke up our collective skirts as amusement. I would ask (were I insensitive) if you were exceedingly unfortunate looking (and felt no one else could desire you) or were a member of a family with drug or alcohol problems. I am certainly the last person to disparage one for incest, but you neglected a lot of detail and if you really seek help it would lend a little to the answer if I knew about your parents and their relationship. How long has the relationship been ongoing with your father? I would assume you are 16-18 years old. How long has the relationship with the cousin lasted? Who was the first? Why the three, and was your mother supportive of the sexual tryst or did she encourage it? How did she become aware of the situation? How often do these sexual encounters occur and how often are you the initiator? And does this go beyond the scope of this web site and discussions of morality?
Only you know, or perhaps you don’t, whether you are a victim of abuse. You seem to indicate that you indulge these males in order to receive attention, compassion, and love. You say you “are ok with it? but does that mean you are willing to tolerate it or do you actually desire and initiate sex? You may be a classic example of crafty manipulation. Did your father or brother induce you to have sex with your cousin? Are you being used as a toy and secretly they all view you as merely a sex object? You say they treat you well after you have sex. If they loved you, the sex (or lack thereof) would not change the way they treated you. How long have you been sexually active? Are you active only with the three you mentioned? Obviously, if you are upset by your friends’ disgust at the other girl’s incest, you are not really at ease with the situation. Their reaction evidently made you reconsider what you were doing.
I have seen many studies of abuse and I lean to that conclusion in your case. It may not be forced, by restraints or threats, but some people are very adept at mentally controlling other people to make them think there is no recourse but to submit to their demands or be shunned or made to feel inferior or unloved. Of all cases of incest I have examined, the involvement of father-daughter is the most difficult to understand. Sibling incest and with cousins is quite common, but the male parent being involved brings cause for concern for your ego. The mother-son sexual relationship is very much more common than most people suppose and is better handled psychologically by all involved. I worry that the future might hold difficult times for you in the form of mental stress.
If you are truly at ease and have no anxiety or sleep deprivation problems, perhaps you are just one of those who fit no mold and are “ok?. The mother’s attitude is an alien concept to me, but I am learning more each day, it seems. If you continue to have misgivings, I would suggest professional opinions. Notice I said the plural: opinions…and I would definitely NOT go through my school facilities. Planned Parenthood or other more liberal organizations could discreetly steer you in the right direction for a trusted confidant. There are many charitable organizations that would pay for your counseling. I am not saying there is anything wrong with you, but that you should really examine the motives of all concerned before you decide to continue in this behavior. You might declare a moratorium of six months and see how the attitudes and actions of those involved change.
As far as your question about morality, I can only reiterate what others here have said…beauty is in the eye of the beholder and morality depends on the psyche and belief system of the one in question. If you are content with your life, you are home. However, I get the impression you are still developing your personal morality. You need different perspectives to make an educated and informed standard of morality for yourself. All of this assumes that you ascribe to the Humanist view of life. If you seek religious help, you will get a totally different answer. As to the questions you posed: You are not crazy. You are just unsure about what you are doing. This is normal. This is how we form our personalities and standards…through trial and error. The trick is to not make too many errors. Be doubly certain you make no nine month errors which can turn out to be eighteen year responsibilities!
Dana
Hi Dana:
You said I was developing my personal morals. Can I do that? Is morals different for some people than others? Is something moral for me and not moral for someone else? I don’t understand. You ask so many questions. I guess I did not think about my questions. I see that someone will have to know a lot about me to help me. I wonder if I really need any help tho. I am happy. Everyone likes me. I just wondered about sex with my family members.
Ok. I am a cheerleader in a east Texas town. My mother is black and my dad is white. My dad was with a woman before he met my mother and she died with a cancer. They were not married but had a boy who is my half brother. He is two years older than me and is in the junior college this coming year that is close to us. My dad drives a oil field truck and has worked for the company since he was fifteen. He drives dangerous loads a lot and gets paid a lot extra for the danger. Mom is a teacher or professer in the college where my brother is going to go and teaches history. Not like a lot of my friends there is no anger in my home. Every body is always laughing and making jokes. We go a lot of places together and we all love each other. We get each other presents all the time and not just on special days. We kiss a lot and talk all the time. You think I have a bad family life but I don’t. I have the best family anyone could have. I have never been spanked or hit and my dad is the funnest guy in town. All my friends are jelous of me for my family. They love to come to my house because they say nobody is ever pissed off here. Sometimes I have to tell people to go home because they don’t want to leave.
I had to look up some of the words you used but everybody says I am very good looking and have a great figure. My brother says my breasts are to die for. I work hard and love to cheer. I know I am not smart because I just can keep my grades up to be a cheerleader. My dad says I will not have to know anything because I can have my pick of rich men…ha ha. I am dark like my mother but have straight sandy hair and deep blue eyes like my dad and he says that is a combination that no man can turn away from! He says I am built like a brick shit house but he has not been able to explain why that is good. I get most of his jokes but what is good about compared to a brick crapper? My brother laughs and says someday I will get it.
My cousin was the first I had sex with. My brother caught us one day and asked if he could have some too. My cousin said I should so I did and we did it all the time after that. That was when I was 13. My brother was playing football and has dreamy muscles all over! I loved his body. Mom caught me and my brother doing it and all she did was make sure we used protection. For some reason my brother just mostly wants to do oral on me. He says it drives him up the wall. She started talking about it one time at dinner and Dad laughed and said maybe I could help him out if I liked it that much since mom was to busy most of the time when he had days off. Mom dared us and said she didn’t care if I didn’t. So we did it while she watched just to see if she ment it. It was real easy after that. I liked it so much. Dad is bigger than my brother or cousin and he can last forever!
But I did what you said. I told them I did not want to have any more sex for six months and you were right. They did not like it and now they kind of don’t pay much attention to me. You are smart. I am not going to do it with them until they act better…if ever. The bad thing is that I want it so much and I know I can’t refuse them for very long. My brother knows this too and even said that I am too hot to quit. I have a boy friend on the football team and he has been trying to get me to do it with him and I really want to. I am with him a lot this summer and it is hard to say no. I only say no because I can get what I want at home. My brother and dad don’t want me to have sex with anyone because they say somebody else would brag and then I would lose my name and honor but I if just do them no one will know. Should I just do my boyfriend and quit the family sex or do like my brother said? Don’t tell me to just quit sex because I can’t.
I don’t know. I do good…I get a’s in art and music and speech classes. I don’t do to good in English or History or math. My math teacher says logic does not exist in my brain. He says I am not serious enough for this world. Maybe I am crazy? I just love to have a good time and I like everybody. How do I figure out if this is moral or not and what kinds of morals are bad?
Thanx a bunch,
Euny
First of all, you have a very considerate and wise mother. It is clear that you enjoyed the experience of intrafamilial sex with your half-brother and your dad, and is still longing for it.
You clearly want to have sex again with both your dad and your brother. Since it is consensual, since all three of you derive pleasure from it, and since your mother does not disagree, go for it. Just make sure that you practice safe sex to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Better still: why not have a foursome with your parents, yourself and your brother all present?
Sex has evolved from its main procreational function, to the present situation where it is practised almost exclusively for recreation, by which I mean pleasure and enjoyment. Being celibate for six months was IMHO not the wisest thing to do.
Eunice:
I am at a rare loss. If you are really sincere and honest with us, I am afraid that I would have to agree with Hank. Since you are determined to carry on this odd relationship with your family, I would advise you to forget the boy friend as a sexual partner. If he presses you, tell him you are saving yourself…period…end of discussion. That has danger written all over it if he should ever discover the truth. You would be a perfect candidate for blackmail, as would your whole family. Your mother could lose her teaching position and if the legal system should be notified by a disgruntled boyfriend, your whole world would certainly not be happy anymore. At your present state of mental and educational development, I say your moral position should be that one that protects the family’s security. I don’t think you should withhold sex as a punishment, but your actions have done well in establishing your assertion of being more than a sex object. If you are satisfied they are all acknowledging that, you were successful and the relationships should be even more binding.
I think you are at a point in life where advice from uninvolved parties is not going to suffice. You are going to have to grow your way to your own understanding. That will come with experience and education…both regimented and practical.
Reams of anecdotal anthropological data are not going to be relevant to you at this point. Ask yourself in what condition or state of being you would be better off and that is how you should handle your questions…at least for the present.
Eunice, you are in a situation yo do not deserve to be in. You have been manipulated by your parents into thinking that what you are doing is what you want – and even if it is your parents should know that you are too young to make that choice.
You need to get some external advice, there are all sorts of consequences for what is happening at home, especially if the authorities find out, but you have to realize that anything that happens is not your fault. Please seek some form of guidance as Dana suggested.
If nothing else this situation at home is ruining your natural progression as a woman. You are denying yourself and your boyfriend what would be a normal step forward in your relationship because of the home situation. You say that you don’t want to sleep with your boyfriend because you get all you want at home, yet the people at home are saying that it is about your reputation etc. There is a disconnect there that I hope you will see. They want you for themselves, they are being possessive and are, rightly, worried that if you have sex with him you will start to spill all your home secrets and also stop having sex with them at home.
However, this being about morals rather than an agony column I feel I should point out who is wrong, who is right and what society currently says will happen to them:
You have done nothing wrong and should be protected.
Your cousin, assuming he is of a similar age has likewise done nothing that kids for thousands of years hasn’t done.
Your brother may have coerced you into sex by threatening to tell on you and your cousin, or he may simply have asked for some. This is a bit murky. At some stage he may have technically broken the law as he was two years older than you, but you’d hope that would never be prosecuted.
Your father has breached his position of trust in an insidious and quite terrible way. You may have consented (what daughter refuses their daddy?) but you were not of an age capable of informed consent and he should have known that and never put you in the position where it was required. The law will deal with him severely.
Your mother has known about sexual abuse in her family and even condoned it rather than reporting it. This is a disgraceful state of affairs but it will depend on the legal system in Texas as to what happens to her. Personally I’d have her put in jail.
I know this will scare you about going to the authorities, but you do need to get some form of counseling. It may well be that you are well adjusted and can handle the situation you are in, and I hope you are, but you should never have been put in that situation by the people who are supposed to protect you. However, it may be that you have been psychologically forced to accept something is right when deep down you know it isn’t. Authority figures have a lot of power over people, especially minors, and that is why they have extra responsibility too. e.g. in my country the age of consent is 16 but a teacher cannot have an affair with a former student until they turn 18.
One final point Eunice, even if you are satisfied with your life at home, what if your father has a predilection (preference) for younger girls? While you might be a willing partner there may be other girls he meets on his travels that are not so willing or sexually mature and he could be scarring them for life. This is not something that can be ruled out.
Hi Eunice,
Sorry I haven’t responded earlier, I haven’t been following much of this thread since it’s been getting more comments than I can keep up with, but now I’ve read back since the start of your comment.
I’m inclined to agree with keddaw here. The natural instinct for someone reading your story would be to conclude that you have been manipulated and abused, even if you may not believe this to be the case.
Although this is not a certainty, I would suggest you get some distance and perspective — with the aid of time and a counsellor (who will be bound by confidentiality).
Because you started these sexual relationships during your formative years, you may not have had a chance to gain the perspective and life experience to judge whether you are being abused or not.
You are soon to graduate — if you’re doing well in art and music is that something you’d want to pursue? If you have greater independence in terms of college or starting your own job or something similar you’ll be better equipped to understand what’s best for you.
BUT I think a confidential counsellor is someone you’d need as soon as possible.
Hi again. I decided to read some about Humanism or humanist as Dana said. I think that describes me. I am not really into organized religion. It don’t make since. But what my problem was is how my friends talk about others who have done what I do and if they knew what I do they would really diss me. But then they like me a lot and they don’t really like the other girls that do what they say is wrong so I don’t know. That is the moral question. Is their moral better or worse than mine? And I know some of them have many sex partners and three of my girl friends are bi so can they throw stones? I mean, they do each other and the thought of two girls doing it makes me crawl to the window! But I don’t put them down. Like if they want to it is not my thing to say no!
I have been talking to my mom a lot lately about all this. I even teased her like Hank said to see if she would do my brother while I did my dad. She was a little hissed at that thought. She told me I like really should not have any sex at this time. I told her I had to have it and could not stop. She said she would rather I did it at home then because my dad and brother are clean. See there was a stink in town about last April when it was known that about forty kids in school had some pretty bad STDs. That was not cool! No I have not done it with any one but my dad and brother and cousin and not my cousin anymore because he has a girlfriend that does him now. I told him I was quitting sex anyway so since he did her he can’t do me anymore because I don’t know who she did. He swears he will never tell and I believe him. I really did like to do oral on him but I don’t like it to much to do oral on dad or my brother well it is ok with brother because he is crazy to do it on me. I don’t know if it because my cousin is black like me or what.
My mom told me that her dad like used to beat her and treated her like a slave. Her mother’s sister my aunt took her and raised her after she was 12 and sent her to the best college. Mom has a phd from Yale and has worked for the government before moving to Texas to teach. She met dad then…she had car trouble on the side of the road and he stopped his truck to help her. She swore no one would ever be hurt in her family. She and dad don’t tell us or make us do anything. If she doesn’t want to do something herself she just says it needs to be done and me or dad or my brother will do it…whoever wants to. Dad is the same way. Every thing is a suggestion and not a command. There is no problem if nobody does it. There is a sign in the living room dad made that says IF YOU CAN’T SMILE GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.
I really thank everyone for their thoughts. I think I know now what to do. I am going to take a little bit from what everyone said and patch it together like a quilt to make my own moral style. Mom has a cousin that worked for the US Embassy in Paris and still lives there. She has another friend that is attached to the navy base in Japan at Yokosuko (I am not sure about the name of that town or base). Any way, mom has shown my art to some people at college and they say it is very good. I am interested in impressionist and Oriental especially Japanese art. Mom says if I can finish two years of junior college she will send me to live with her cousin for one year to study art in Paris because she said she would love for me to come. If I don’t mess up she will send me to Japan for one year to study art there and I can live with her friend. Mom and dad make about 175 thousand together a year and they have no debts. Dad has two small houses his dad left him that he rents besides driving so he does good. So money is not a problem for us. I just wonder who is going to take care of my sex need in those places!
I don’t know if I need counsel. Michael you might be right but I never thought there was any abuse because mostly I am the one that makes everything happen. Maybe I abuse them? Maybe my old boyfriend was right and I am a airhead and just can’t see. But I am happy all the time and he is always pissed about something. I can’t tell you how I need sex. I am not as bad as Paula but I really really like it a lot! From what option mom told me lately I can see that I do not need a boyfriend getting in the way. What would I do with him if I wanted to do my art dream. Anyways he told me yesterday that this coming year was his last and he didn’t want to waste time with a girl that would not go all the way with him. I think you can figure out what I have decided to do. My dad and brother are going to have to carry the load as Dad says. I am going to take French this next year. And you all helped me to see. Thanx. Wow I have not written this much for English! I am sorry if I got to far off the topic.
Euny
Eunice
I have always, since I chose my field of study, determined not to judge or criticize anyone’s personal choices in life. I merely chronicle human activity and study the historic trends and possible future outcomes. There are numerous vectors affecting the psyches of all members of your family, as have every family. Your mother’s attitude is no doubt heavily influenced by her past parental history. Your father evidently is a happy-go-lucky, go with the flow, c’est la vie type person who doesn’t wish to be encumbered by civil proprieties. Your brother is just a user. If he is as handsome as you say, why does he not vent his lust elsewhere? Perhaps he is not capable of a meaningful relationship or does not want to invest the effort in emotionally bonding with someone else because you are convenient and willing? You are being used whether you know it or not. I realize you love sex. Most teenagers do. Most animals within their breeding years do.
As far as your plans to study overseas in light of your predicament about sexual desire: Most likely your lust of youth will have diminished to a controllable level by then. If not, I know from what you say that you will float at your own level and find your own solution.
My conclusion is that your entire family, whether content with the status quo or not, would gain by counsel. Someday you are going to have some issues that will manifest themselves in a way you are not planning on or even aware of now.
Please acquire some books on logic and take some courses, even if non credit, on family relations when you start college. Your mother has outlined a marvelous future for you and I hope you will avail yourself of all those opportunities and be content.
Good luck to you.
I was directed to this site by one of the persons who posted here some time ago. I am amused at all the words you self proclaimed experts have wasted in trying to justify your particular dogmas. Being a physicist by education, I can’t imagine the rationale of those who call themselves religious. Over fifty thousand years of organized (somewhat) human cultures and we still debate which god caused the thunder. Earth gods, volcano gods, tree gods, cat gods… Why don’t you all just admit that you are the result of a capricious solar event billions of years ago and quit trying to ascribe morality. Morality is the perception of actions good or evil judged by every nondescript idiot since the first savage objected to the actions of his fellows. You want some morals? Invent some and call them your own. Like beauty, morals are in the eye of the beholder, or observer. We all have some circumstance that we will not participate in. Is one position superior to another? No, unless it violates another’s realm. So if grandma wants to screw her fourteen year old grandson and he likewise…so what? He is not old enough to make that decision, you say? In geologic time you are not old enough to constitute a blink of an eye and in another celestial blink, no one will be alive that even remembers it. Incest is neither moral nor immoral. It is either legal or illegal. Pass laws legalizing it and let those who want it do it. Let those who do not want it have memories of not getting it. Constant BS about rationalizations are as useful as trying to resuscitate a dead grasshopper…who gives a crap. What if physicists and astronomers sat around debating the existence of the molecular reactions that make everything function. Whether someone believes that quarks exist is irrelevant. Quit building wretched psychoses about phantom relevances and enjoy what you can of this incredibly short existence.
@michael
Well (not having any actual experience with which to judge), I would think that it would be easy for an incestuous couple to ‘hide’ their relationship… Simply choose to present themselves as family (brother-sister, etc.)and deny any ‘relationship’ OR to present themselves as a couple and deny being related.
For the homosexual example you present: Don’t ACT gay (no PDAs, attitude, etc.), don’t announce any gayness, don’t try to get ‘married’… Keep the ‘relationship’ aspects private.
Bigots are bigots and will MAKE trouble even where there isn’t any. I know someone who is so hung up on mixed-race relationships they will ‘see’ a couple just to have something to attack. Not having such presumption, I don’t see anything but two people – they could be co-workers, classmates, teammates, or even just friends. They aren’t doing anything a ‘couple’ would (no touching, kissing, holding hands, lovey-dovey eyes, etc.), so I don’t see a couple.
That’s all I mean by keeping it private to keep the peace. Don’t ACT like you are (fill in the blank) in public, even if you are.
Kohl, it is not always so easy to hide a relationship. My sister and I shared an apartment whilst attending the same out of town university, and after three months started a sexual relationship with each other which lasted for the rest of our studies (three years). Neither regret it and both still remind each other of the happy times we had together. It satisfied our mutual physical and emotional needs without any strings attached. We went out of our way to date others, never held hands in public, and never kissed each other (even in front of family members). Yet during one vacation at home mom asked my sister whether she was on the contraceptive pill. When my sister asked (with surprise in her voice) “Why on earth do you ask something like that, mom?” she replied: “Well I know that young people are sexually active nowadays and I don’t expect you to be different; I just don’t want you to fall pregnant, especially not by your brother…”
My sister then asked: “What make you think something like that?” to which mom replied: “I have noticed that the two of you have become quite close lately.”
Needless to say, that floored both of us. Mom never brought up the topic again and we left it at that, apparently never took up the topic with dad, but we both believe that mothers have a seventh instinct when it comes to sex between their daughters and sons.
Bud: Your conclusions are too simplistic. Being a scientist, you should really re-evaluate your conclusion. Whether you are an atheist or agnostic or whatever, you must recognize that humans must have a code of ethics or they devolve into sub-human or lower animal behavior from whence they came. If evolution is an upward advancement, at some time humans must leave certain aspects of random or expedient carnal desires behind and aspire to some higher level of societal evolution. That is the lesson of history. Those who fail to adapt and hold constant a strong sense of purpose fall prey to barbarians at some point and lose their identity to the sands of time.
Dana: But the whole point is that you are already assuming a system of morals before you can evaluate this as a “lesson of history”?
Bud: Not sure what you mean, are you saying a naturalistic conception of life has no room for morality? If so I’d need a bit more argument, but even if that’s true, what are we to do?
Kohl: Which comment are you addressing? I don’t remember a homosexual example here.
@michael
#54
Michael,
Anthropology is a catch all branch of study which attempts to catalogue the human experience. It has many facets and sub fields much like specialists in the field of medicine or engineering. My fields of interest lie in cultural and social anthropology and not so deep into the biological, scientific advances in technical devices as machines and tools, or linguistic anthropological studies. In any ordered or semi-ordered structured society, no matter how loosely formed, there will be taboos. There will be born of necessity due to human nature forces and general agreements among the tribe or society that will encourage or preclude certain behavioral tendencies or actions. Often, a nation is nothing but a family grown large over much time and a nation’s moral code can take millennia to develop. My point was that, historically speaking, a nation on the rise in power, both militarily and socially, will project a certain drive that is sparked by a common bond of pride and what will be defined by those involved as honor. As long as these remain paramount and are reinforced generation to generation, the society grows in strength and influence. Invariably, at some point, the nation or society will begin to degrade. The Status Quo will gain acceptance and excellence in all strata of society will erode into license taken with the structures that were responsible for the development of that society. Eventually even honor and pride become victims to the abandonment of the “morals? that braced the development of that nation/society. It is this that I referred to as the “lesson of history.? Study the history of every great empire that has risen in human experience and you get the same result. Eventually, when pride falls and the commonality is lost, a younger, more vigorous and determined empire will replace it. Sometimes, that which replaces is inferior and humanity as a whole recedes and knowledge is lost for extended periods until a commonality develops and society is once again steered toward those human qualities that promote a renaissance of a cultured civilization that lends itself to the advancement of the best of human experience and increases in knowledge. We can debate the morality of incest or body disfigurement or any other “aberration? from the norm…the fact is, no matter what you call it, gods or no gods, those things socially accepted are “moral? and those not accepted (by a determinant majority) are considered “immoral.? They are but labels and we can debate the labels. If there is but one human being on the planet, morals exist…his. I try not to judge personally, but just offer the views I perceive anthropology reveals. I have friends who are a married couple. They often indulge in “swapping parties? with complete strangers. While this is extremely risky as a health issue, they do not consider their actions “immoral? because it is consensual. I do not condemn them any more than I would condemn consensual incest. They are my friends regardless of the fact that I could not participate in such behavior. It is not that I consider myself morally superior, but that I have no desire to do such things. I am completely satisfied with a monogamous relationship where fear of disease and the possible conflicts of the practice is non-existent. Incest is not an issue with me because of the lack of the possibility, but I admit it is interesting to contemplate and has manifested itself more times than I would have thought in my studies.
I apologize for the verbosity. I suspect you were looking for a shorter answer. Basically, that which was, is…and that which is, will be.
Michael:
I categorize myself as a pragmatic Libertarian, which might be a contradiction in terms. The whole universe or universes as the case may be, is wrought with chaos and violence. The universe, or what people can see of it, seems to be beautifully quiet but is the most violent place imaginable. At this time countless stars are crashing into each other in explosions that are not even comprehendible. Galaxies are merging in impossibly violent crashes. Stars explode, or nova, and crash into each other continually while others are born. This has been going on for over 18 billion years. Does one star consider it moral to destroy another and itself in suicidal plunges to oblivion? No, because as far as we know, stars do not think.
Humans, as one humorist said are “no damned good.? Some of the most evil are religious nuts. Let’s face it: Morals are merely the label, as Dana said, by which we designate our rules of engagement. Now, my view is that Libertarian model which says you leave me alone and I will reciprocate in kind. That, I think, is the highest morality and I suppose religious people would say—do unto others… The subject of morality of consensual incest between people of equal stature in the relationship whose actions affect no other is moot in my world. Of course all deserve ethical and moral (?) treatment in a “naturalistic conception of life?, because that is Libertarian. In other words, if you affect none other by your actions, who cares? Or rather, who should care? It seems someone is always ready to tell someone else how to live when, in a short period of time, no one will even remember the person or the event. What vanity! I don’t use drugs or alcohol because I need all my brain power for my vocation, but I find it none of my business if someone else does on his own property without affecting others. It only becomes the business of society when he affects another’s life or property while under the influence. If all drugs were legalized, there would be a short period of excess, but then the criminal element would fade into the shadows and countless billions of dollars and human resources could be saved…but that’s an aside.
As to what we should do…suck everything out of life you can! You are aging more rapidly than you think. Just don’t interfere with another’s similar pursuit and don’t worry about what others are doing that doesn’t interfere with you! My wife and I often have to attend social gatherings due to our positions in our fields. We are constantly amazed at the amount of gossip and criticisms people feel obligated to impart to us. We constantly and gently remind people that we care not what trysts, trials, and drama others are involved in. Their incest, adultery, or other personal private problems are none of my business. What petty and inconsequential drivel! Who cares? I guess some do.
First let me say I am an orphan. The state of California raised me from the age of six months when my parents died in an accident. I never had foster care or parents but consider myself well adjusted. Let me say also, in my life I have met more “Doctors” who were more wrong than the village idiot. Medical doctors and the many psychobabble ones whom I have known included. The psychologists and psychiatrists of the U.S. armed forces should all be sent home to work in the fields harvesting crops. They have ruined more military men who were only suffering from stress of war than the enemy by convincing them they had some mental problem only a doctor could fix and it would take many years of therapy. After the drugs and brainwash, the poor guys were screwed for life when all they needed was some R&R. For some reason I have always had an academic interest in incest, possibly because I am an orphan. I spent many years in the Boy Scouts and twenty years on active duty with the U.S. Navy and had occasion to talk to dozens of boys and men about the subject in that time. You are very wrong if you think maternal/son sexual relationships are always destructive. Most would not believe how prevalent it is in the U.S. and in England, especially with so many divorces and single parent situations. I talked to many British sailors about it also. Most, not the few, who told me they indulged in incest were very happy about the time they were in those relationships and almost all that were relayed to me involved the son seducing the mother. Most of the time the initial contact was made involving the use of alcohol and started when the son was less than sixteen. After the first time they said it became matter of fact. I have more experience with this than most, and I knew the men and boys who talked to me too well to not know if they were lying. I was not some arrogant social worker trying to manipulate or impress anyone or write some book to make me look like I was an expert. The forums I have visited make me sick with some doctor trying to tell everyone what to believe and that “this?, whatever he believes, is always the case. This is the most honest discussion of this subject I have found on the Internet. Most of the people who would talk about it told me they never thought about it as a moral thing but just something they did because they wanted to.
I wish I could write about all the stories, but I don’t think anyone would care because they have their minds made up about how things “really” are. I have been around the world…to over fifty countries and people are stupid everywhere when it comes to sex and the educated ones think they know everything.
Hi again. I know this is not a teen forum and I will not post here much again but I wanted you to know that I learn a lot from you people and I check the site often. One of my friends has sex with her brother and the other one has sex with her sister which is uggg with me but I don’t say anything. They don’t know what I do but think I am some counsler to them. I talk alot about what is said here and make them think. I think Melvin said a lot and what we do is not strange in the world. And Michael do you think people are more or less moral now than before? Dana thinks when people do anything they want it ruins the nation. Does everyone agree or is it something else that makes a nation go down?
Another thing? I love art and music but I we see that there is nothing like expressing ourselfs in words like some of you. We are going to write and pay more attention in English and take some journalism classes in school. I really want to be able to write like you do. I don’t know why I am dumb. My Mom and Dad are really smart. Maybe I am really an airhead like my boyfriend said. But everyone likes me and he can’t say that and now he don’t have a girlfriend anymore.
Euny
Eunice, I am happy you are content in your life. However, I did not say lack or failure of morals was THE cause of the downfall of a society or nation or empire. It is certainly A ROOT cause but there are many factors contributing to the rise and fall of nations. Superior opponents or technologies, catastrophes of weather, geologic capriciousness, diseases, and many other socio-economic considerations factor in. Continue your quest for knowledge…it will set you free. Do not allow yourself to be labeled with derogatory names such as “airhead” and do not joke about being stupid. As you think, so you are. Anyone who casts disparaging or denigrating aspersions your way is not worthy of your time or consideration.
Man you guys are too far out. Makes my head hurt. What if we are just sims that some kid is playing with and we don’t really exist. Or what if we are some kid’s science fair project and he gives us whatever morals he wants us to have just for the hell of it? Someday he will get tired of us and flush the experiment down the toilet? My morals, your morals, everybody got morals…and nobody got morals except for a particular moment in time and the next moment POOF be more fun to change morals! Screw everybody you can, your next piece might be your last!
I did a search for consensual sex, incest, and abnormal sex, etc. and went through several url’s before ending up here. I have to say this is the most open and frank discussion without all the usual hostility and condemnation I discovered elsewhere. I have seen enough of what I consider perversion in my life in the way humans relate to each other that I wonder if there is such a thing as morality. When I was sixteen I discovered my almost fifteen year old brother masturbating. It scared him and he begged me not to tell our parents. I agreed if he would let me finish him and watch him ejaculate. I had never seen a penis and had only heard about men’s orgasms. I experimented with him for a month or two and one day we did it. It happened regularly after that. Unfortunately, about a year later, one night after a ball game he got drunk with two of his friends and told them. They didn’t believe him so he brought them home and let them watch us through a window. They then blackmailed me into having sex with them many times in my senior year. One of them was incredibly obnoxious and ugly and I almost puked every time he did it. Fortunately, they kept their word and never told anyone. I never had sex with my brother again but those two made me do it until I graduated from high school and joined the Army. I never went back home and I have not spoken to my brother in eight years. My parents have always wondered why I will not be in their home in the presence of my brother but I never want to see him again as long as I live. I never had a problem with the morality of the situation but I will tell anyone contemplating any similar behavior, if you are discovered, your life can be a living hell. If Hank or Paula or Kohl still checks this sight, I would respect any advice you might have. I don’t need any cold analytical examination from someone like Dana—no disrespect intended. My brother has sent me email, registered letters, and messages through mutual friends, but I can’t forgive his betrayal. I did about six months therapy under an assumed name one time (if you are in the military, you never, ever have or admit to having mental problems or having EVER seen a psychiatrist—it goes on your record and will mess you up eventually) and I could see no resolution possible. I realize this is not an advice column, but you people have dealt with this issue of incest. It is hard to be so unforgiving but it was like I was forced to have sex with animals. I have just returned, for the second time, from a war zone and have seen really terrible treatment of women by their families. Call me a bigot, but Muslims suck. Maybe this is has something to do with reinforcing my disgust of my brother and his friends. Thanks for letting me vent, if nothing else. I discussed this with my fiancé and he advises me to try and make up with my brother…can I?
Hi Jane,
I am very sorry indeed to hear about your experience. Your feelings towards your brother has nothing to do with you and him having had sex with each other; it is therefore not incest-related, although it resulted from you and your brother having had sex. It is totally based on his betrayal, and the subsequent way in which you were blackmailed into having sex with two guys you resented. I find it ironic that you ask whether there is such a thing as “morality”. Secondly, you also of course blackmailed him initially, when you caught him masturbating, by admitting that as a result of it he should let you “finish him and watch him ejaculate…. I experimented with him for a month or two and one day we did it.” The degree of blackmail may differ, and the consequences for him was certainly enjoyable, whereas his betrayal of you was a nightmare that continued for years. And I would not for one moment suggest that one blackmail act compensates for the other.
However, you should get this unhappy episode behind you. Place the onus on him to come clean with what he did. Send him a curt note that he knows how much anguish, hurt and unhappiness his betrayal of your (sexual) relationship caused, that you suffered for years as a result of it, and ask him to propose how he is going to rectify the situation. Only if he is indeed sorry and apologise could you consider the next step of forgiving him, for only an act of forgiveness on your part (and an act of true remorse on his side) can normalise your relationship.
Be grateful that you have a considerate fiancé who obviously understands your feelings, does not blame you for what had happened (apparently not even the fact that you and your brother engaged in consensual incestual sex), and stands by you.
Good luck. For your continued happiness you must get over this feeling of having been a victim.
I’m sure every case is different but studies show that sibling incest is more likely to happen in homes that are dysfunctional. Distant parents or parents who are openly highly sexual are common factors. My dad was an alcoholic who left us when I was 9. My mother was going constantly juggling “boyfriends”. My brother who is 2 years older and I relied on one another for a lot. He seemed to be the only stable factor in my life.
He was also very shy and nerd like. When I was 14 I caught him maturbating. He was embarrassed and begged me not to tell our mom. I told him I would never tell and that it was kind of fun seeing his penis. I had been watching him for a couple of minutes before he knew I was there so I saw quite a lot. His semen was the first I had ever seen. He looked surprised that I wasn’t grossed out or upset by what I had seen. He asked if I ever played with myself and I admitted I did. He asked “Can I see? You saw me doing it.” So I lifted my skirt, slid down my panties and let him inspect my privates. It was embarrassing and exciting at the same time. Of course mine were the first female genitalia he had ever seen. Slowly over the next few months we involved ourselves in mutual masturbation then experimented with oral sex. I asked him to have sexual intercourse with me for my 15th birthday. We did and we continued to have sex for several years. He wasn’t my only partner. I followed my mother’s pattern of finding a new “boyfriend” every couple of months. But even though I had other guys available to me I still went to my brother often. He gave me a sense of being loved. He continued to be shy so he wasn’t out there having sex with a lot of girls but he did have a couple of relationships. It’s been over a decade since our last time together. We are both married and struggling to not let our marriages become dysfunctional. But I do cherish that relationship we used to share.
Melissa, without access to reliable statistics, I am not sure that sibling incest occurs more in dysfunctional families. Sex has evolved over the years from its prime function for progreation, to its present main fuction for recreation and enjoyment. The availability of reliable contractiption and the spread of STD’s contributed to this: young people are more inclined to have sex with someone whose sexual history is known (for example someone within the family circle). Also, communication (especially the internet) has brought sex “into the home”, and siblings are more inclined to experiment with sex within the family nowadays. My sister and I come from a fully functional upper middleclass family; our parents are both professionals, a nd we always had a good relationship with them and each other. We became lovers at university when we shared the same apartment at an out-of-town university, and continued our relationship for three years. It only happened after discussing it a long time, and we both decided that we will try it once, and should any of us have any problem with a brother and sister being lovers, we would not continue. Neither had any regrets, not to this day. It fulfilled in our mutual physical and emotional needs. We now live apart and both are in a committed relationship with somebody else, but would often phone each other and enjoy discussing the wonderful sex we enjoyed together, just as you apparently enjoy the relationship you had with your brother. For that alone you must be grateful – many siblings have hangups and psychological problems after having been engaged in an incestuous relationship. In our case, as in your case, it seemed to be totally consensual, which is a prime requirement (over and above the requirement to practice safe sex so as to avoid an unwanted pregnancy).
I guess I agree with Kelsey in that attitudes toward it probably are affected by a person’s age. I’m in college and I’m a sophomore. What’s causing me to read these discussions is that I’m taking a psych course on sexuality and sexual behavior and one of the topics is “deviance”. Incest is one of the practices identified under that heading. The brief class discussion of it kind of rekindled my fascination with it. I ‘ve never done it but I did often fantasize about it during my early and mid teens. I had once spied on my older brother and his summer girl friend having sex. I was 14, he was 17 and the girl was 16. I’m not sure why but I felt pangs of jealousy as I watched. I wished it were me with my legs wrapped around him. She was obviously in ecstasy or a really good faker but her reactions to having my brother thrusting in and out of her got me very aroused. Maybe it was the fact that I was a virgin and wanted to experience sex in general or maybe it was that I had some subconcious attraction to my brother. I did have sex for the first time later that summer and I felt disappointed. It was pleasant enough but I didn’t find myself moaning and squirming in pleasure as my brother’s girlfriend had. I had sex with 27 different guys during high school but never had an earth shattering orgasm. There were several times that I fantasized about my brother as I had sex. Part of my fascination with him may have been that he is very well endowed, far bigger than any guys I’ve ever been with. It never happened with my brother but I can honestly say that if the opportunity had come up I would have gone through with it. I do know 3 girls who had some sort of sexual involvement with their brothers. One played what she called “show and tell” with her brother when she was 12 and he was 13. Another gave her brother oral sex. The third girl got drunk with her brother and they had intercourse. It was just the one time and they both regretted it later or at least she says they regretted it. So I do have direct knowledge of teens having sexual experiences with their siblings. So again, my theory is that it is probably more accepted among the younger generation.
Melissa and Holly, I think your experiences are much more common than people would like to think or admit. I think consensual sibling incest, especially involving oral sex, happens frequently, and you are right that teenagers today are more accepting of it. I have read many posts from women or girls who said they learned how to perform oral sex by practicing on their brothers. I think this kind of experimentation happens a lot these days because performing fellatio has become somewhat of a rite of passage among girls today, especially those in middle school. Many girls feel pressure to do it “the right way” and look to their brother as a convenient practice partner. As long as both the brother and sister are willing and there is no abuse or force, I too do not see anything wrong with it.
You both may want to check the Topix Human Sexuality Forum at http://www.topix.com/forum/news/sex, and do a search for incest and see the numerous posts that come up. The Live Wire Teen Forum at http://www.golivewire.com is another site where I have seen a number of posts about consensual sibling incest.
One thing I am curious about Holly. You said that if you’d had the opportunity to have a sexual experience with your brother as a teenager, you would definitely have done it. What if the opportunity presented itself now that you are older? Do you think you would go through with it, or not?
I forgot to mention in my first post that there is another forum called The Hip Forums at http://www.hipforums.com, where the topic of incest is discussed. You can get to one post there by googling “jillbi24″ and you will find a post from a young woman who has what I would call “recreational sex” with her older brother. Many of the comments there are judgmental, as one might expect.
Hi everybody,
When i was 15 years old, i had consensual sexuals relations with my cousin (same age) but withouth penetration. Since then, i had some obsessionel ideas
about that for a few weeks and then i forgot about that (90% of the time, even if i remember that sometimes and it annoys me very much). The thing is that
i didn’t remember that it affects me that much, even if i cannot be sure at 100% because i had a depression – with other causes, i’m pretty sure of that – and was not very sexually/socially active – i even left school – so i could be sure that it didn’t affect me. But let’s say that i’m 90% sure.
So, i’ve started thinking that it wasn’t a big deal. And a few months ago, my depression was almost cured, i’ve returned to school, restarted working on many project that i’ve canceled before, etc. But, when i’ve started reading about incest, i had like a “traumatism”, there was a lot of articles saying it was a really big deal, sometimes stating even that my life would be destroyed (or that i have to take a 6 years therapy to have a chance to lead a normal life), so, after thinking that it wasn’t a big deal, i’ve became
full of hatred and envy toward all people who had “normal life”, with the sensation that i condemned my self with an action that i’ve commited when i wasn’t
even informed about consequences, and with this ridiculous impression that with spending enough time in “lamentation” i would have a chance to correct my pas. The more i read articles about that (looking for confort), the more they make me feel paralysed, lost, and with no chance to lead a normal life.
The worst, is when i think about having a girlfriend. Since i’ve started thinking what happened was really a big deal, i have this “feeling” that i must confess it to my gilfriend, and that otherwise i would be cheating on here. Sometimes (even if it’s unusual), i also start thinking that i’m hiding some big crimes that the others must now. And also this sensation of being unique (in the bad way), coz all confessions of incest that i read are about “victims” (so they are not responsible, i don’t mean that they don’t not suffer, don’t understand me wrong)
I have to confess that even if my past experience made me sometimes inconfortable, i’ve never had the sensation of being condemned before i started reading theses articles. So, from thinking that it was not a big deal, i’ve started thinking that i had no chance, that i was just unlucky for being ejected from life because of a random event in my 15 years old …. with this time-related-obsession (if only i didn’t did that, i would have a chance to lead a normal life by now)
PS : Sorry for my english, i’m frmo morocco and it isn’t my native language.
Holly writes:
“I ‘ve never done it (incest) but I did often fantasize about it during my early and mid teens. ”
About her brother she writes about seeing him having sex with his girlfriend: “I’m not sure why but I felt pangs of jealousy as I watched. I wished it were me with my legs wrapped around him.”
“It never happened with my brother but I can honestly say that if the opportunity had come up I would have gone through with it.”
It all is an indication of a suppressed desire to make love to her brother. By saying this, she has overcome the taboo on having sexual relations with a blood relative.
Her final conclusion is: “So again, my theory is that it is probably more accepted among the younger generation.”
You are correct. Sex has evolved beyond its original prime purpose for procreation, to the present situation where it is practised for recreation, mutual enjoyment and fun. Young people tend to practise safe sex under the same roof rather than run the risk of contracting a STD by sleeping around with someone whose sexual history is an unknown entity.
If you can completely remove the probability of an unwanted pregnancy by practising safe sex, and if it is consensual, the original taboo approach to incest falls away. If it is mutually enjoyable and fulfills in the physical and emotional desires of both partners, why should it be unacceptable?
I think people are missing the point. Ok, so there is a chance of disabilities and genetic defects in offspring. Thats a health issue. What about the psychological impact? Would you want to be a child born to parents that are brother and sister?
How will that affect a child growing up?
Also, many true life cases ive come across (including a personal one) of consensual sibling incest, its usually a selfish desire and neither party want to get caught. Maybe they enjoy the hidden thrill of it. Not many are willing to fight and stand up for their will to “love” as they put it, unlike same sex marriages. In many true life cases if both siblings are married or involved with others they are still very happy to carry on with the betrayal. Its very difficult to catch a brother and sister having a sexual affair after all.
A family is the only place to have the opportunity of safety and sanctity of love with respect without the intereference of sexuality. A safe ground to escape to. We can have sex with anyone. But if were honest true strong love does not require sex to be involved. If your madly in love, if its a true love, sex is nice but is nothing compared to the respect and companionship that is rewarded from that love. So with that thought, whats sex got to do with it all?
Hmmm….interesting. I have skimmed thru the above replies to your post. I have to say that I am quite interested in the brother/sister attraction thing – but (and this will probably sound fairly tame to you) my main interest is whether brothers and sisters kiss (proper sexual kissing). I am not interested in whether they have sex. That is disgusting TO ME. I am not judging whether it is disgusting to you, or whether you or anyone else has done it. It is not for me to judge.
There is some family history for me. What happened was that I was brought up in a family which had two brothers, five years apart in age, with two sisters in between. We were a normal family, but the family suffered a terrible blow when our father died young. My Mum did very well to keep the family together, but I guess she did not have time to supervise us in the same way that two parents could have done (she never remarried). About three years after my Dad’s death I became aware that my brother and sister were snogging (Brit word for passionate kissing). I was not sure how to deal with this, and I did not try to prevent it. About a year later my other sister was also snogging her brother! This went on for a few years, but eventually fizzled out. Confession time – there was one night where I snogged my sisters! I never did it again, but it went on for a couple more years, between my brother and sisters.
So I don’t know how common it is for brothers and sisters to kiss like that. If anyone has any comments please feel free to leave them. Thank you.
@Lost: your contribution is full of contradictions, but I will leave it there, unless you are willing to talk about consensual sibling sex where every precaution is taken to prevent an unwanted pegnancy. (And don’t come with the stupid remark that “accidents do happen.”) And stop condemning such relationships as “selfish” or “a betrayal”. As for doing it in secret: in most countries incest is still regarded as a felony. Countries such as France, the Nethelands, and some Scandinavian countries, removed incest as a punishable “crime” 200 years ago. The rest still has to follow…. In some Scandinavian countries siblings can marry (on condition that they are older than 50 years, or can prove that they have been sterilised).
William: sibling lovers are no different to other lovers, and yes, they do engage in what you call “snogging”. Apparently you have a hang-up about sibling sex, but even that can be cured with good psychiatric counselling.
@Hank…
Don’t jump down the throats of everyone who doesn’t immediately completely accept incestual relationships. Lost (and some others) did have some good points, although Lost might have worded them in a way you didn’t like.
I agree about the kids thing. Kids brought up by siblings would have to face a LOT of worries, especially in places where incestual marriages are illegal – there was one German couple who were in and out of jail at least three times, and their kids were all taken away to foster care. So of course that’s something to think about.
I think what Lost was saying is that usually, family is the one place where you can fall back on unconditional love without sexual expectations, and it can be very unsettling to have that reversed.
I’m not saying that I think consensual incestual relationships are wrong. You love who you love, and you can’t help it – if no one is being harmed or coerced, then it’s just as valid and right as any other relationship. I just think that there are some important things to consider and that such a relationship shouldn’t be entered lightly…
Wow. I never thought a site line this could make me feel better but it does.
At 27 I had a defining episode in my life that threw me fullblown into bipolar illness. I had a lot of sex with a lot of strangers partially as a result of it
In 1980 I was reunited with a half-brother I had not grown up with nor seen for 20 years. In the midst of a mania i went nuts over him. I asked to visit him at his home and he consented. I did so and found he had friends staying with him. He told me he told them I was just a step sister so they wouldn’t think too much about us sharing a bed.
I stayed with him for four days and had sex several times. Then I flew home. A few weeks later I had begun to feel guilt and selfdisgust which has continued for 30 years. Although he wanted to hook up again way back then we never did. Years passed and I heard from family that he really didn’t like me so i called him one day. He barely spoke to me but said he never wanted to see me again because of us having had sex so many years ago. He said i would never be safe around him and leave him alone. I was crushed and feel more disgusted than ever. He is now our fathers caregiver and asked me to his home to see dad and carried a friendly facade but his eyes were hateful. We had a short talk a few weeks ago when I tried to explain my illness but he hates me. I am so sad and distraught I feel like suicide.
Any thoughts that might help me see this differently or clearer? Am I really so hateful a person?
Nothing? No comments??
Hi Sadsarah,
Sorry, I don’t monitor this particular thread often since it’s grown so large. It sounds like what you’re experiencing is something far out of the league of anyone commenting here who is not a trained professional.
If you are experiencing this level of distress you should definitely seek some kind of therapy — only someone who can see you face to face and get to know your situation in a lot more detail is likely to be able to provide any real and useful insight.
So incest is immoral and unnatural huh?
Indian tribes in longhouses regularly practiced it.
As did and do primitive (arguably natural?) tribes in Africa.
So did the English, French, Grmans and Russians… and still do.
Along come the Christians who were told by the “celibate” masters that all sex is dirty and only for procreation…what hypocrites they were in retrospect.
Oedipus did his mother.
When I was growing up I knew of several forms of incest in the middle class neighbourhood. I must confess that all of them were with children, some of whom no doubt against their will, and some joyfully with boys and their mothers.
I am opposed to incest with children as there is the suspicion of coercion and manipulation.
Consenting adults I have no problem with. I have never participated, but admit I had an Oedipus complex until being a young adult. Am I ashamed of it?… Nah.
I would rather be in the company of consenting adults than in the same town as hypocritical condemners.
SadsarahI just got onto this thread, and want to comment. Sounds to me as though your brother got into a bad place about his actions. Maybe his “friends” got onto him after you left and got him to worrying about what you and he had done. So he, in turn, put it all off on you. ‘Don’t know if there’s anything you can do about him, but don’t blame yourself. It is sad what he did, but you don’t have to feel sad about it yourself. And don’t feel like you have to change him; only he can do that, if he chooses to. It’s your choice to have a good, contented life, if you want it. That’s your choice to make, but you may need help.
Years ago, I was very depressed, partly as a result of an incest experience, but I got help and made the choice to give up all the crap. It’s made a tremendous difference in my life since.
Thank you Chuck. What you have to say makes sense and I will try to let it go. If he had NOT been a willing participant I would or could better understand but he was all for it and later wanted it again. Maybe that’s why his actions now hurt do much.
Thank you for your support.
The pro – gay marriage activists often trash the “slippery slope? theory that granting gay marriage will lead to incest , beastiality etc.
And rightly so, since marriage between people with some characteristic does not lead them to have that characteristic. If the anti-gay-marriage bigots want to argue for a slippery slope, they have to argue that the mere existence, or acceptance, of gays in society leads to an increase of incest, bestiality, etc., but of course that is a lost argument, and even if it weren’t, arguing it would be an acknowledgment that the slippery slope argument that they actually do make is intellectually dishonest (along with all the other anti-gay marriage arguments they make).
This is the first I’ve put this in writing, and no, that’s not my real name. I also admit to not reading all the comments in their entirety. There are a lot! So, I appologize if I am repeating a discussed subtopic.
I can’t say that I thought much about incest for a long time. I did once find my cousine attractive, but the yuck factor was enough to prevent me from peruit of even the thought of anythig more.
So, I was completely taken off guard when I found myself and my half sister fooling around one night after a drunken family reunion. I had enough wits about me to keep from having sex with her, but that was about it…. Oh, it was consentual. I stopped the proceedings.
Guilt has ridden me since from several directions. I can rationalize through some of it. She is a half sister. We share a father, not a mother. Also, we were not raised together. In fact, I don’t think we ever shared the same last name, as my step father adopted me before she was borne. Still, those are still rationalizations. There is no denying she is my sister. I am not sure how much more I could resist her and am releived only by the fact that our geographical separation removes me from temptation. That isn’t the only source of guilt, but the only relevant, and the only I am willing to discuss.
I have had moments since that I become obsessed with wanting to know more about incest, and do some internet research. This is one of those moments which led me here. A previous one led me somewhere, don’t remember where, explaining that incestual attraction can be explained by common inherited traits that both parties find attractive. I don’t know. Sounds like a theory.
I am drawing this out a bit more than I wanted. The point and question I wanted to lead to is if consentual incestual relations have been studied through the lense of increasingly prevelant mixed families – where siblings share only one parent, may or may not have been raised in the same household, and out of curiosity (not for the sake of the original posted arguement) if the same genetic arguement against such relations is relevant in this case.
Comments here are well, based on personal experiences and intellectual attainments. The truth about incest is that it against any scriptural principles. If you wouldn’t mind reading up the Bible book of Leviticus, you’d see God’s dos and don’ts. Boldly, I’d say there is no justification for such an immoral behavior and any well meaning person has got to realize this.
Daniel, committing incest is not for every one. If you are ridden by a guilt complex even thinking about it, then you should not even consider cross the incest taboo line.
For those who regard making love to a biologically related person, if it is consensual, if you take all precautions to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, and if you can live with your conscience, as something quite “normal” and acceptable, it can be a mutually enjoyable and rewarding experience. For such individuals sex has developed beyond its original prime purpose for procreation (or “breeding”, to put it crudely) to something which is practised for recreation, enjoyment and mutual pleasure.
It is clear to me that you are not “ready” for incest; whether you can overcome your hang-ups in this regard, only you will know. If you cannot, don’t do it. If you can, the experience may be rewarding to both of you. The same applies to your half sister; TALK about your feelings and decide on the next step, which may be not to go any further.
I wish I could just tell him “all you had to do was say NO.”.
Hi again. It has been a long time since I even thought of this web page. However, I was unable to sleep tonight and just happened to think of this site. I must say I am surprised at the follow up to Michael’s original question. I feel for those who have experimented with incest and had a miserable experience that resulted in some kind of mental problems or psychoses. I wish I could sit with you and just tell you to let it go. I, fortunately, never had any problem with it and look back longingly on the whole experience. Like others here have said, bide the time. Believe me, in time none of this will matter. Don’t waste one minute worrying about what anyone thinks of you and please don’t punish yourself! You may feel like everyone can see though your clothes, but it is only an illusion. The world is woefully short of love and if you have found it with a sibling, don’t disparage it. Be prudent and be wise in your actions but don’t let imaginary demons play with your mind. Kick them out. Tell them to go to hell where they belong. I have a pet dog who is sometimes indiscriminant where he defecates. I have stepped in it wearing my best shoes on my way to a formal night out with my husband. I don’t curse the gods or have emotional problems about it…I just take care of the matter and forget it. If you have done something that you just can’t stand to think of…don’t! Tell yourself that it happened and it is in the past and the future is all that is before you …so why worry about the past?
I don’t know how many people really contemplate incest or other taboo’s…I think it just happens somehow. To some it is salvation (I know it was to me) and to others it is abomination. Well, I am not a religious person anymore but I remember the priest telling me one time that when God forgives a sin, He forgets it…really forgets it and it does not exist anymore…so you should not even bring it up in prayer again. If that works for you, then use it. If you have put something you are ashamed of behind you…LEAVE THE DAMNED THING BEHIND YOU AND QUIT THINIKING ABOUT IT! Find other, more beneficial thoughts to occupy your mind. Focus on what you WILL do and not what you DID do.
I could not care less about what people think of me and you should not either. Like a writer above observed, life is too short.
Peace.
Paula
Paula, thank you for being willing to share your experience on this blog. I appreciate your willingness to tell all about your experience with your brother. You offer some very good insight and perspective. Glad you are still coming to this site and giving advice to others.
Sadsarah, you migth want to google genetic sexual attraction and sign up at that website to talk about your problem. There are numerous women there who are in relationships with their half-brothers who might be able to give you advice. You have to sign up for a profile there, but it might be worth it to get advice from other women who might be able to help you deal with the situation with your half-brother.
Hank has some good points, but implies that the purpose of sex is primarily to have offspring. Not hardly!!! As he states for consensual siblings, etc., sex is for the sense of closeness it gives those who love one another, and for pleasure. For everyone!!!! Only rarely do people deliberately have sex strictly to cause pregnancy. Especially consangual sex!!
I practise incest with my son (not full intercourse but “relief.”) He loves every minute of it, so do I, and we are devoted to each other. The law against incest is pointless and cruel.
Chuck, you say: “Hank has some good points, but implies that the purpose of sex is primarily to have offspring.”
If that is the impression I gave, then I gave the wrong impression of my viewpoint on incest. I have repeatedly said that the original prime purpose of sex has been for procreation (and in the animal world it still is), but (thanks mainly to safe contraceptives and the danger of sleeping around due to STD’s) it has evolved into sex being practised primarily for recreation – for mutual enjoyment and satisfaction between two people who want to make love to each other, and enjoy doing it (i.e. the consensual bit).
And with the advent of safe contraception, the main objection against making love within the family has fallen away. However, it is still this taboo that is foremost in all societies, and which is going to be with us for many years to come.
Having overcome the taboo, making love with (in my case) my sister is something natural and morally acceptable. We have no hang-ups about it, neither regret it, and the three years we were able to make love to each other daily (sharing an apartment whilst studying at the same out of town university) still ranks as the happiest times of our lives.
Chuck, further to my message above: please read my posting #36 (dated 03.04.10) above, where I said:
” My sister and I never considered having a child with each other, not because of the possibility of a deformed baby, but simply because we never wished to have one. We took all precautions to practise safe sex to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. …. If it is consensual, if the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy is removed, if it is done in private, if both derive enjoyment from it, why deny siblings the pleasure of a mutually beneficial and enjoyable sexual relationship (even if they are less than 18 years old)?”
I’m not even sure about the consensuality bit. Suppose your son were desperate for sex (as he probably is), can you not tell your daughter to satisfy him and spank her if necessary until she satisfies him?
No, Jenny, NEVER!
Consensual means that both want to do it willingly, not forced or coerced or spanked into submission.
If your son is so desperate and you as his mother would like to see him satisfied, why don’t you satisfy him yourself?
But then that would turn making love into what is categorised as fucking – and there is a difference between the two.
Hank, of course I satisfy him myself, but he wants variety!
Jennie, how did you and your son get started pleasuring each other, and how old is he? I really thought incest was more common among same-age or close-age relatives, and not common between a parent and child. I take it his father does not know anything about your relationship with your son, correct? Also, you said you do not have full sex with him, but “relief.” Is the relief possibly oral sex?
James, Jennie accidentally responded not on the site but by reply email to the auto-notification of the comment. Below is her comment.
> Jennie, how did you and your son get started pleasuring each other, and how old is he?
6 when I first stroked him, 13 now.
> I really thought incest was more common among same-age or close-age relatives, and not common between a parent and child.
I know several mothers who relieve their sons or give full sex. People keep it secret, of course.
> I take it his father does not know anything about your relationship with your son, correct?
No, he is aware of it and I do not let him interfere.
> Also, you said you do not have full sex with him, but “relief.” Is the relief possibly oral sex?
I kiss him there a bit but I don’t let him squirt into my mouth. I relieve him gently by hand. I let him into me sometimes but I make sure he slips out before he makes a mess.
Love, Jennie
As per this post, I haven’t read through the last 50 or so comments.
But, given what is now happening, I think it’s time for comments on this post to be closed.
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